“I could sympathize with each person…and yet…what was missing? Was it the environment that the movie was played in? Was it the people in the audience? Was it the facilitator? Was it just because I was at a different place that it somehow, felt hopeless and sad? Was it because at the end…there really was no hope? They had found hope in embracing their gay and lesbian identity, but is that hope? I wondered and began to ponder? Are we cheapening grace when we welcome people to stay in their captivity? I realize that someone who is identified as a Christian gay or lesbian no longer views themselves as being held in captivity but, as someone who holds a traditional Biblical Sexual Ethic does this make me unloving and unkind to say they are still in captivity? Jesus loved radically. I heard many times this week that Jesus walked in the market place, he ate with tax collectors, prostitutes…the down and out…those called ‘sinners’, if we use that analogy when we talk about Christian gay and lesbian people we are placing them in the same category as those called ‘sinners’, and Jesus never ate and walked with people so they could stay in the same place in their sin…he walked with them so they could rise out of that and live in the fullness of who He had desired for them from the beginning. We cheapen Jesus’ love when we water down truth. Jesus isn’t this hippy love guru, who said only nice lovely things about love…and only challenged the religious leaders. He challenged all of us. He does not define us by our unmet needs, our brokenness, or even the ways we label ourselves in sin. He calls us out of that, into generous spaciousness with wonderful, healthy, safe boundaries for our good.”This begs the question for me whether or not this individual views the experience of same-sex attraction as sin. Because really, all we knew about these young people (and I re-emphasized this point at the screening) is that they identify as followers of Jesus and as those who experience same-sex attraction and are comfortable using the term gay to describe that. Another attender stood up to speak to the audience at the end of the evening to say, in a similar manner, that he was saddened and wanted these young people to be presented with hope. He shared that same-sex attraction had been part of his own journey, that he has been married for 21 years and he and his wife have four teenagers. So this hope of which he spoke – was the hope that the young people in the film could get married and have four children? Is that the hope? Given that these young people in the film had nearly unanimously spoken of attempting orientation change with no concrete result, is the insinuation then that they simply didn’t try hard enough? Find the right program? Have enough faith? Pray enough? I pray that this is not the message that was being communicated. This same individual, in an earlier event had stated that he had never denied that he continued to experience same-sex attraction. However, in his comments at the film night – that didn’t seem to be communicated. Rather, the message that seemed to be communicated was that hope equals heterosexual marriage and children. One of the descriptions that came up in the discussion was my raising the term mixed-orientation marriage. This is not a term that I coined but I have found it a helpful way to honestly talk about the marriage of opposite gender spouses where one or both experience some level of same-sex attraction. (As an aside, I had a good chuckle when an old friend emailed me to say that he and his wife were most definitely not in a mixed orientation marriage – because they were both most definitely attracted to men.) The reason I think this can be an important term is because of the tremendous need for honesty about the enduring reality of experiencing same-sex attraction which is the reality for the majority who marry someone of the opposite gender. This term is not a judgment on the health or lack thereof of such marriages – it is simply a way to describe with honesty that the reality of same-sex attraction lingers on and needs to be stewarded in the same manner that any sexual attraction to anyone other than your spouse needs to be stewarded. I found it interesting that one individual said that he had been labelled as being in a mixed orientation marriage. I’m not sure if this happened in a private conversation. But he said that he was offended by this. It reminded me of a conversation I had in Cape Town with one of the leaders who was presenting in the sexuality conversations at Lausanne who said that he would be offended if anyone called him gay – even though he readily acknowledged that same-sex attraction was not eradicated from his life. Now let me be clear, I will support anyone’s autonomy in deciding how they want to describe their reality, relationship, experience. I support people owning the language they feel comfortable with. What I find curious, however, is the leap to assuming that a descriptive term is a label. Again, I’m faced with a question: what is the difference between a description and a label? When does a description become a label? Such questions around description, labels and identity become very important if we hope to prevent people from talking past one another in the conversations around faith and sexuality. And clarifying our understanding about language will require that we are willing to lay aside our assumptions of one another and actually truly listen. It will require humility. It will require graciousness and generosity. And I’m pretty sure that these attributes are consistent with the person of Jesus. I suppose one might ask, “Why bother?” Why bother to try to work through the assumptions? Well for those of us who describe or label or identify ourselves as followers of Jesus, I think we need to choose to live in the postures he modeled for us. Jesus did not take offense at the things said about him. When Jesus was “offended” or perhaps better said as riled up in his spirit, it was in the face of injustice and death. Jesus adopted a position of powerlessness and humility. In the face of enmity and polarization, Jesus charted a completely different way – a subversive way that said, “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God. Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.” The verse right after this section says, “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.” Hmmmmm. Who is blessed: the one who thinks they are being labelled and is offended? The one who is accused of cheapening grace? The one who others say has no hope? Perhaps God in his great mercy and love will bless all of us, in spite of us. Though there were challenging aspects to the events in Vancouver, I am as committed as I have ever been to speak honestly and as courageously as I can about the need for those who name the name of Jesus to adopt a posture and tone that is consistent with the Incarnate One. We need to be honest about our realities. We need to lay down our assumptions. We need to listen beyond our own experiences for the ways God may be working in the life of one who differs from you. We need to work for peace – not perpetuate polarity. Let me conclude with a Jean Vanier quote I shared the night of the film:
To be a peacemaker means not to judge or condemn or speak badly of people, not to rejoice in any form of ill that may strike them. Peacemaking is holding people gently in prayer, wishing them to be well and free….. It is welcoming those with whom we may have difficulty or whom we may not especially like, those who are culturally, psychologically, or intellectually different from us. It is to approach people not from a pedestal, a position of power and certitude, in order to solve problems, but from a place of listening, understanding, humility and love……
-WG
I hope this isn't too quirky, but I connect this essay to Mark Anthony Signorelli's "What's it like to be a man?" at the Front Porch Republic blog November 22 (http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2010/11/what-is-it-like-to-be-a-man/).
ReplyDeleteThe folks whose "concerns stemmed from their sense that generous spaciousness waters down the truth, doesn’t address sin and repentance and is simply a manifestation of moral relativism" may be trying to understand same-sex attraction entirely from the outside, "objectively," and thus inadvertently practicing a kind of reductionism.
Thanks be to God that He did not stay outside human experience, objectively pronouncing about the human condition, but became incarnate and walked among us.
Once again, all I can say is 'WOW'! From one who was adamantly side B; gay but celibate (and very outspoken & defensive about it to side A folks), I find myself less than a year later in a very different place.
ReplyDeleteI have to be honest Wendy and tell you I once viewed you as 'compromising/watering down the truth & making excuses, etc.' in order to usher in what I thought was your view on this issue, Side A. But as I took your advice- shut my 'pie hole' & really started to listen to both sides or rather, listen to the person as a human being and not just as a 'Side'- it's amazing what I've learned & how little I really know about this issue or have a freaking clue about what I thought I so confidently believed in. It's been very humbling, confusing, and down right embarrassing as I've had to go back to several people & apologize for my words & actions. Now I'm facing what you are facing; being misunderstood & judged by my 'openness to other ideas or looking at things differently now,etc'.
In this process I've discovered that I have this amazing friend who is 'straight as an arrow' and a lover of Jesus, who I actually told last year, 'I give you permission to cut off our friendship if I ever change my convictions in this area' to humbly having to tell her this week I no longer view homosexuality like I once did & that I'm not so sure I will remain celibate any longer. Wendy, her response to me is exactly what you've been talking about all along, instead of holding me to 'my stupidity' a year ago she simply responded, 'that is where you were at the time and I have no plans to stop being your friend because your in a different place'. I realized right then & there that I was glimpsing the heart of Jesus in her. She has not changed how she views this issue (nor have I demanded she change her view just because I have)but her love for me has not changed either. Something so simple but so profound happened in our conversation that night- I realized how incredibly blessed I am to have a friend like her. I want to be that friend to others- no longer demanding or insisting that I have the corner on truth but allowing others to 'just be' where they need to be at that time in their life. It's been a very disorienting place to be, scary, yet exhilarating. In fact now that I know I have someone like her in my life- it's released a freedom in me to actually choose more authentically where I may in fact land, and I'm not so sure that it won't be back where I started-Side B. But I will at least know for certain that I came back to that belief sincerely and honestly after much soul searching & exploring....because someone like my dear friend, allowed me the 'generous spaciousness' that you so eloquently refer to so often.
God Bless you Wendy for all that you do in this area and I will continue to pray for strength & boldness on your behalf- to present what I feel is such an important message to the church in regards to this issue.
Thank you for your transparency in sharing the immense challenge of risking to adopt a more robust posture of humility. I am grateful to hear that you encountered a friend who was not governed by her anxiety but was able to trust that God is on the throne and simply love you where you're at. In these spaces, we begin to breathe enough to allow and hear the Holy Spirit's whispers.
ReplyDeleteDo you ever actually say what you believe is God's truth around this issue Wendy. Are there any absolutes for you with respect to when it is sin. Do you believe one can know God in a right relationship and continue to practice homosexual sex and do you believe God is ok with that and if yes what is your authority? Don't you think it is time to actually tell people what you really believe?
ReplyDeleteDo you think the Holy Spirit will whisper something that is not in God's Word?
ReplyDeleteWendy, thanks so much for coming, and for pressing through the spiritual battles you faced here.
ReplyDeleteOne thing that struck me the other day is that the last time I went to one of your workshops, a couple years ago, I held a very different theological position on homosexuality than I hold now, at your second visit. Yet your words and your postures challenged me equally both times! This in itself should communicate that no matter where you stand theologically, generous spaciousness is difficult, and you, Wendy, are an excellent model of this spaciousness, even when (especially when?) you feel weak and under attack.
Also, on a more personal note, Wendy, if you ever add people to your e-mail list requesting last minute prayer and spiritual "covering" when you're facing a difficult presentation or situation, I'd love to join.
Thanks Beth - you were the rock star behind the scenes for these Vancouver events and I'm really grateful.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous - While I don't believe the Spirit's whispers will be inconsistent with scripture .... I do believe that the Spirit is continuously revealing Jesus to us. And even though the Spirit will not contradict scripture, we perhaps do well to remember that there are many paradoxes in scripture and many points of tension.
I can well understand the response about Jesus and the sinners that you quoted. This has been something I have thought about a lot. I am convinced that the commenter is right in saying that Jesus didn't search relationships just to be nice to people and leave them unchanged. However, I'm not so sure anymore if our understanding of "sinners" is very helpful there. Was this really what Jesus called the people he spend time with or was this rather the label applied to them by the religious elite?
ReplyDeleteHi Wendy ... I tried commenting earlier and something appeared to went wrong so I'm trying again ... I had some thoughts and honest questions as well as observations. I mean no disrespect here, just trying to understand where you're coming from. When people don't know where you're coming from then communication get's a little laborious. And that too can be quite draining.
ReplyDeleteYou said ...
"These reactions seemed to arise at a surface level from misunderstanding, particularly in the area of language, and from rather strongly held assumptions."
Yes ... this very well could be true but I wonder if this has happened on both ends.
"But deeper than these surface level realities, there seemed to be spiritual dynamics at work that made it difficult to press through to actually have much real conversation."
Satan works to divide ... is it not true that this is a spiritual battle and one that could potentially divide. Satan would much rather the church work against each other then with each other... would he not? I think that would be the case.
"While I presented our posture as seeking to be grounded in humility and intentional choices to be non-patronizing and not coercive, reactions at times seemed to come in a completely opposite spirit: arrogance, power-plays, pressure, and overt condescension."
I'm not sure how one has come to understand the other night to be what you have described. I was there and I didn't see that. I saw and heard questions, honest questions and people wanting to know and understand and questions not really being answered ... or were they? I'm still very much so confused with how "bridging" can be done effectively without having to count my own experience and personal testimony void. I've asked this once before and have not yet found an answer, in fact, there has been no response to these questions. That, to be honest Wendy is quite frustrating and opens the door to folks misunderstanding each other.
I would like to add another comment.
You said ...
ReplyDelete"The reality is, of course, that our concept of generous spaciousness is only one aspect of a Christian response to the questions and dilemmas that can arise at the intersection of faith and sexuality. It is not the whole story – but rather one part. It is the part that seeks relational connection in a space that is intentionally hospitable, loving and safe for people with diverse perspectives."
What I find is that these concepts are best learned when people experience this generous spaciousness but I've seen it one sided unless I'm completely blind to it but I've always been open to learning.
Folks within the LGBTQ Community are not the only ones who are dealing with same gender attraction and if we're trying to bridge folks with same gender attraction to the conservative evangelical church then I wonder why there is a percentage of people not represented and heard who are in fact dealing with same gender attraction and who do fall within the category of 'people with diverse perspectives' and one does wonder if part of this generous spaciousness would include all folks who have all had to work through issues of their faith and sexuality and have all come to different perspectives ... one of which being a Post-Gay biblical view of scriptures.
We place an emphasis on responding the way Jesus did but I'm not sure if there is one encounter where Jesus did not confront sin, sinful behavior, and wrong belief systems. He is both described as a lamb and lion and so the question sometimes is when do are we as passive and gentle as a lamb and when are we as strong and bold and authoritative as a Lion?
ReplyDeleteI still wonder if in order to bridge we're being asked to lay aside our own convictions, our own experiences, our own testimony, our own biblical view of scriptures and then encouraged to affirm the belief systems and biblical views of scriptures that go against our very testimony, experience, and understanding of scriptures?
These are honest questions that I have and as a person who is same gender attracted herself I for one would really like to find answers to some of these questions.
Sorry if this is getting to be a bit too long but nonetheless these questions have come up.
One last comment ...
ReplyDeleteWe all have a world view, most of every one of us have our own convictions and understanding of scriptures and we all respond from the place of our experiences and personal testimony.
For some being in a mixed orientated relationship is not as simple as being in a mixed orientated relationship but part of their own personal testimony of healing in process. For to end it at that place for all folks would be actually disregarding the true testimony of others who would also fall into the same category of diverse perspectives and who too had to process their own faith at the intersection of faith and sexuality.
As for myself I don't refer to myself as being gay not because I'm uncomfortable to call myself gay or to describe my reality as such but rather my own biblical perspective, experience, and testimony really makes calling myself gay not an accurate description of myself. Calling myself gay or even describing myself as gay or even straight for that matter is not my reality.... neither describing myself or identifying myself as a lesbian or bi .. none of these descriptions really accurately describe my reality.
So I wonder if assumptions and misunderstandings are happening on both ends of the spectrum?
OK ... one last comment then I must go because I've went over my break :)
ReplyDeleteI have to say that I admire anyone who has the courage to work towards creating dialogue and facilitate conversations. I admit, I don't understand you and while I was at the film and everything I am still at odds with New Directions and will perhaps not agree with everything you've said or perhaps I don't agree with how you communicate an openness with folks in the LGBTQ Community and perhaps it's because I really need to honor God's work in my life as healing is becoming more and more a reality in my life.
So, I respect your courage. I do hope that we can discuss and dialogue more with regards to this issue and perhaps what we can't overlook is perhaps the testimony and experiences of folks like myself. It is, to be honest, kind of hurtful when we're talking about bridging and seeing through the eyes of another... I go out of my way to see through the eyes of folks who differ from me and yet I'm not greeted with the same kind of openness.
Wendy can you explain what you mean by generous spaciousness?
ReplyDeleteIt kind of sounds like the broad road.
It’s absolutely incredible Wendy where you are taking people. The anonymous guy is thinking about having homosexual sex again and from your response I take it you are ok with that. You are not loving people if there is no truth involved in what you are saying Wendy. Jesus was always grace and truth, grace and truth. Like the guy in the red words says, Jesus never wanted people to stay in their sin he wanted them to be set free. Some guy who was celibate who wants to practice again he's going back to his bondage to that sin and you are giving him approval and suggesting the Holy Spirit is whispering in all of that? Absolutely incredible. It's tragic where you will take people Wendy. It's actually so incredibly sad because you really are not offering hope or freedom in Christ at all, which there can be for those who engage in any kind of sexual sin, heterosexual or homosexual. Jesus will grant them the gift of repentance just like He will grant you that same gift. But you have to see your need. You have influence Wendy, just think about it very seriously, consider what the Bible actually teaches, consider that every word is true, consider that eternal consequences hang in the balance do you not find that very sobering?
ReplyDeleteIt really does anger me because you want to suggest that God will whisper something that goes against what He has already revealed in His Word. Where does that come from this idea that He will go against what He has already so very clearly spoken.
What angers me is that for those who are hopeless in their sin you offer no hope at all. It's all just so incredibly sad. Please seek the Lord Wendy ask Him to convict you of His truth. He will if you are serious. Praying for you Wendy.
Folks just wanted to let you know that I am in Calgary and very busy with events - and not able to give the time needed to engage with these comments right at the moment. It may take me until early next week to respond. Thanks for your understanding as I complete the last few hectic days of this Western trip.
ReplyDeleteWendy, as a married, monogamous, celibate, Christian, transsexual lesbian without an ounce of doubt that I am loved by the Father, indwelled by the Holy Spirit, and washed by the blood of Jesus, I would like to say to all your anonymous critics the they too are loved, as shocking as all of this may sound. By some of their definitions and views, they would accuse me of living in, or staying in sin, and that is how I saw myself for close to forty years and lived with an overwhelming sense of inadequacy, until I was was able to reconcile scripture with my medical condition. Yes, I was diagnosed by doctors as having gender dysphoria, a medical condition that is recognized by the BC Medical Services Plan, which paid for my surgery.
ReplyDeleteMy point is that life is complicated and it is dangerous to limit ones understanding of gender identity, sexuality and orientation when scripture is vague and at times silent on the specifics. Now, more than ever, I understand what Paul meant by "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." And we could add: compassion, love, mercy and grace without judgement.
I thank you for your courage and I appreciate the work you are doing.
thanks Wendy, as I would like to respond to your blog post...since you quoted me in red (wasn't Jesus quoted in red? That sure is a compliment) If anyone would like to read the whole blog post you can read it at www.kennypwarkentin.blogspot.com
ReplyDeletethis will give you a fuller understanding of that brief quote.
Wendy I would love to hear your answers. What I found in the seminar and film screening was a definite feeling of bias toward anyone who fully endorses everything you say, but to have a contradictoray view or to challenge anything...they are deemed arrogant, power hungry, pressuring, condescending, accusitory, and suspicious.
I actually did not find that to be the case on the Thursday day conference. I felt that there was dialogue...though it was pretty shallow for the most part, there were some brave people who happened to share their views and thoughts within the context of the offering of a generous space and the idea that we were called to be in the tension of differing experiences and thoughts.
As we offer this generous space, my understanding is that this opens the door to communication and it brings to the table all experience and thoughts. It does not have bias...particularly from a ministry that has said it lives in the gray (so they can dialogue and have these conversation with the diversity of the Body of Christ).
I hear alot of emotion and reactionary thought within this post and I am not sure the whole meaning is clear. This could only be me.
What I found in Vancouver is that relationships with others was not disputed. All the people that I knew who responded at the screening as well as at the Pastor Leader meeting all have relationships with those deemed 'outside the heterosexual mainstream', all of which are authentic, beautiful and loving...not with an us versus them mentality.
Did you happen to talk with those who you felt were coming with an opposite spirit?
Sarah-loved your questions and the heart to which you share. Thank you for being transparent.
I live in Vancouver. I work and hang out in The West End. I have straight friends and I have friends who describe themselves to be gay or lesbian...one friend joked around by calling me a "reformed lesbian" I have friends who are as straight as an arrow who are uncomfortable with the issue of homosexuality. I have family who would rather ignore the issue. I continue to interact with Gay Christians as I count them as friends. One lesbian who will even challenge me and hold me accountable towards my faith journey and I support her where she's at. I do this with my convictions in place. Most of everyone I know including my coworkers both straight and gay ... I live and work in the world. I don't compromise my convictions and sometimes I have let my friends go off on their own to do what they want. We still come back together as friends. I know where they come from snd they know where I come from....sometimes I give grace to them and they do towards me. If they ask me or if conversation was led in that direction I never shy away from ssying the homosexual identity snd lifestyle is sin...we may butt heads and agree to disagree and I do this all in light of my testimony snd Christs work in my life. It's a kind of generiouse space I couldn't find at Bridge Across the divide and GCN...they just did not give the same kind of space to me as I gave to them ...but my friends however enter into open dialogue. I'm always open to having conversations and listen to peoples experiences but I won't count Christs work in my life as not...I can't.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate your blog posts, Wendy. This is a good one.
ReplyDeleteVery interesting post, Wendy. I think you and I have picked up on the same theme when it comes to identity. It seems that so many in the ex-gay camp are taken aback by those who describe themselves as "gay" for fear that it becomes their identity, when the same speech their very own experience is wrapped up in a similar "identity" of either being ex-gay, or hetero-desirous (as evinced by the incessant need to talk about their wife and kids).
ReplyDeleteSo it's pretty obvious to me that if the former has an identity problem, so does the latter.
I wonder if we could all perhaps see beyond the issue of how we describe our sexuality, to see into each others' actual humanity and true identity.
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteHow well do you understand that what you offer as "hope", has been anything but for so many people? How well do you recognize that what seems so hopeful to you, has meant suicidality and even death for countless people? While I appreciate that what see as being very hopeful, you speak with a type of assurance that signifies to me a misunderstanding of the bigger picture.
Wonderful post, Wendy. I applaud your continuing efforts to build dialogue amidst so much tension. So desperately needed. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteDj Free--
ReplyDeleteWhile some might place their whole identity on the basis of their sexuality wether gay or ex-gay there are those who place their identity in who they are as children of God period. Them coming to the place of entering into a heterosexual marriage may be a mixed orientated relationship but then for some this is what you call healing in process. To gay Christians why not just call yourself a Christian? Why the emphasis to describe oneself as a gay christian? Why do folks get hurt when people talk about homosexuality being sinful? If it's not the persons identity then one should be able to look at homosexuality from a more objective view point and not get so offended by another persons testimony of healing and transformation. Why not rejoice and be glad and praise God with those who have to a place of healing? Why not praise God for His continued work in their lives? Why the avoidence of talking about genetic studies and research? Why the offense taken when folks talk about homosexuality as being sinful, if it's not somebody's identity?
Sarah, you make a whole lot of assumptions about "gay Christians". Most of which are not true of me. For instance, I'm well-versed in science, and have plenty of experience both doing research and evaluating scientific studies. I never shy away from talking about genetic studies and research. In truth, the vast majority of it shows that homosexuality is not only a normal variant of mammalian sexuality, but probably a beneficial one.
ReplyDeleteAs for others' testimonies - again, you draw major assumptions that don't hold true for me or any of my friends. I certainly rejoice in the triumphs that many Christians make (both straight, gay, bi, trans, whatever) in the area of sexuality. I'm not at all threatened by "ex-gay" testimonies, about the ways in which God is working in their lives. However, when I come to the table and say to talk about the many ways God is working in my life regarding my relationship with my husband, and the myriad ways he's transforming me, I get told be these very same people that *I'm* deluded.
So I'd throw the question back at you. Why do these people feel so threatened by MY testimony? Why are they so focused on their narrow view of the way God works in the area of sexuality that they can't just rejoice about what God is doing in my life? Why the offense at being called "gay" if "ex-gay" isn't a part of their identity?
As for the identity question, I'm not sure you'll find many gay Christians who DON'T believe that their sexuality is part of their identity. I don't think you'll find many straight people who don't do the same. The fact of the matter is, God made us as sexual beings. It is a PART of our BEING "children of God". What's odd, however, is that ex-gays by and large seem to be the only people on the planet that sexuality is somehow not part of one's identity (and then they go on to act in several ways to the contrary of their stated belief).
I make no bones that Christianity is part of my identity. But at the end of the day, it's a religion. And it's a CHOSEN part of my identity. I'm also Black. That's not chosen, but still part of my identity. I'm a pharmacist. Also a chosen part of my identity. I'm gay, a part of my identity that's not chosen.
I think many Christians are under some deluded belief that using adjectives to describe aspects of your identity is somehow sinful. That's simply not the case, and not one bit backed by Scripture. Paul himself describes various aspects of his identity throughout his letters. Jesus is described as doing the same throughout the Gospels.
So why are any of us sitting here and pretending like "child of God period" is actually some virtuous thing to attain? As if our political bents, our ethnic heritage, our personalities are all just so subsumed by that "period" that they are no longer of any importance to us?
I wasn't making assumptions about you personally, I'm drawing upon personal experience and responses I've heard from the vast majority of others. Again ... not you personally, but you'd be the only one to actually have a different response then the majority of others I've come across. So ... no assumptions, just asking questions that have come up from my own personal interactions with others.
ReplyDeleteWendy, I am glad that you are doing this work. In every sense of the phrase - glad that someone is, glad that person is you, glad that you are doing this work.
ReplyDeleteAnd blessed every time I read your thoughts about the work that you do.
Haha. Sarah, sorry for making assumptions about you making assumptions. Guess that makes ME the a$$ :)
ReplyDeleteSo your questions are very interesting to me. Who are the folks you've come across? Because my views don't seem to be too "unique" based upon my experience within the gay Christian community (except for perhaps being a bit more open to ex-gay folks - I just tire of the hypocrisy).
I notice in a post above that you use the term "post-gay". What exactly do you mean by that? Because I notice a lot of ex-gay's are starting to pick up this term and carry it - in my estimation, because their starting to see that the world sees their preferred moniker "ex-gay" as being pretty pejorative. However, what a lot of those guys don't realize is that "post-gay" has been in use for quite some time, and I'm afraid it means something VASTLY different than many Christians try to make it out to be. That's really a term coined by postmodernists, and it signifies that we live in a world where a sexual label doesn't matter - NOT because sexuality isn't important, but because it's vitally important, and since there IS no metanarrative about what sexuality is and how it should be expressed, then it doesn't really matter how you express it, so long as you embrace it for whatever it is for you.
Is that what you mean by that term?? Somehow I doubt it. I think ex-gay folks in general should probably stop trying to co-opt the term - it works against them in conversational settings with postmodernists. Not that I'm calling YOU "ex-gay", or rolling you into that camp (I'm trying to stop making so many assumptions :) ), but I would extend my caution to any Christians (including you) who try to use that term, because I'm not sure it means what you think it does . . .
having come out of a 'gay identity' label...I came to understand that my identity is in Christ, I chose not to label myself ex-gay, because for me I felt as if God didn't look at me as ex gay. He looked at me as His son, with whom He was well pleased with.
ReplyDeleteIf we are to look past our issues of how we desribe ourselves sexually and just look at humanity and our true identities, I wonder what is our true identities?
What does God/Jesus/Holy Spirit say about our true identities?
DJ Free said this...
The fact of the matter is, God made us as sexual beings. It is a PART of our BEING "children of God". What's odd, however, is that ex-gays by and large seem to be the only people on the planet that sexuality is somehow not part of one's identity (and then they go on to act in several ways to the contrary of their stated belief).
Sexuality is part of our being Children of God. We have been created with the opportunity to use that gift of sexuality in the way God has designed us to. Is it our total identity? It is just a part. A part that is called to be in submission to God who has given it to us in the first place. How do we use it? What does God/Jesus/Holy Spirit say about our sexuality?
God has given us boundaries to live in that are for our good, not for our harm.
DJ Free says...
In truth, the vast majority of it shows that homosexuality is not only a normal variant of mammalian sexuality, but probably a beneficial one.
Science...and the vast majority are still not God. If homosexuality is deemed a normal variant of mammalian sexuality, and probably deemed a beneficial one...is that God speaking or is it man? If God is in that research, why would God speak to me and call me out of my gay identity? Why would he do that to thousands of other men and women? I wasn't looking for change, nor was I looking to leave the gay identity, yet God wooed me and called me out into healing and restoration of my sexuality.
At the end of the day religion is religion...but my idenity is in Christ, who makes all things new. Who says I am not defined by culture of those around me, rather I am hidden in Him. At the end of the day...my relationship with Him is so much more imporant than anything else in my life...and anything that I have chosen or have not chosen.
Out of that relationship with him, I seek and am called to love those around me, those who may think differently than me, those who may live differently than me.
God asks us to be in His Love...to know that Love and to foster that. He then asks us to love ourselves...and then calls us to love our neighbor.
We become secure in our Father's love, we become secure in who we are...and we love out of that relationship.
Kenny,
ReplyDeleteIt might sound strange to you, but I pretty much agreed with everything you said. The only difference between you and I is that while you feel God has led you away from same-sex sexual expression, I feel that God has actually called me to same-sex relationship. And the issues you bring up (i.e., the supremacy of your identity in Christ) serves as that foundation for me as well. This is why I do not feel threatened by ex-gay testimonies, nor do I feel the need to trivialize them (at least the ones who aren't deluding themselves), because I am secure in my relationship with Christ. Why would sexual healing look like being called out of same-sex sexual expression for you, but differently for me? I honestly could not tell you. I don't think it's my job. As you say, I'm mostly concentrating on loving God more fully, and those around me the same.
Wendy, thank you for your courage and labour in opening doors for understanding and conversations in these areas! May the Lord continue to bless you and to give you wisdom!
ReplyDeleteWendy I want to thank you for coming to Vancouver and sharing the video and sharing your time. Thank you for being a constant in my life who continually brings me back to what's most important - Jesus. I have never felt labelled by you, I have never been put into the "them" category by you and I always feel like no matter what, I leave feeling more confident in my walk with God. It upsets me that the "right or wrong" - "this or that" gets the most attention these days. But I thank you that it doesn't matter whether I am gay or straight, black or white, pink or purple, skinny or fat, I just know that I find fellowship with you, I find hope with you, I find Jesus with you and to me that is what ultimately matters. If more people would stop arguing or trying to prove their point or what they believe to be "right", that more relationships could grow, more fellowship would take place, which I think Jesus would want. Thank you for your unending encouragement and for going to battle-in-love for people like myself on a day to day basis. God Bless you Wendy and thank you.
ReplyDeleteFriends,
ReplyDeleteI’m glad some of you have picked up the conversation and that you are working to experience some generous space with one another.
I’m going to pick up on a few threads that were addressed to me:
In response to the query regarding saying what I believe, I would refer back this post where I address this kind of question: http://btgproject.blogspot.com/2010/08/questions-beliefs.html
When I am connecting with people one-on-one, the closest description to my role would be that of a spiritual director. The ironic thing about spiritual direction is that it isn’t directive …. It is adopting the posture of listening with another for the leading of the Holy Spirit. I am not anyone’s pastor. I don’t take an authoritative role in my ministry context. My focus is to walk with another and encourage them to press in to Jesus and to affirm the fruits of the Spirit and the postures of Christ that I see in them. So for those concerned that I did not offer correction (or those with the assumption that I was affirming an openness to same-sex relationships) to the anonymous commenter who shared that they are potentially shifting in some of their theological perspectives, I would say that my posture is to affirm the humility that I sensed in their comment, to affirm thankfulness for encountering a friend who was embodying the postures of Jesus to them, and to encourage them to listen for the whispers of the Holy Spirit. This, to me, is the posture of generous spaciousness. When we humble ourselves before the Lord, I trust that he will lead us to the places we need to go. When we encounter the love of a friend who is embodying the Spirit of Jesus to us – that will help us to remain close to Christ. And when we listen to the Holy Spirit, we can trust that he will guide us into all truth. These are things that I feel I can offer to an anonymous commenter that will encourage them in their walk with Jesus. Where I do not have rapport, relationship or the invitation to offer direction, I will respond with affirming the ways I seem them opening themselves up to the presence of Jesus – because I trust that he does have the authority to guide, direct, correct etc. For those who assume that my comments are somehow affirming a gay affirming theology or openness to same-sex relationships – I’d invite you to actually read again what I wrote. For those who expect that I should state words of correction that reinforce a traditional sexual ethic, I would suggest that I have not earned the right to make any kind of corrective or directive statements and to do so would defeat the whole hope of nurturing safe and spacious places. Regardless of where our anonymous commenter friend lands, I can fully trust that God is more than able to lead them to where they need to be. And if God needs human help to reinforce how he wants to lead a person, there are plenty of people who actually know this person through whom he can speak. What he has asked of me, in these online spaces where I am encountering many different people, is to nurture a space where people feel safe to be where they are at and to be encouraged to keep finding Jesus in the midst of their journey.
Part 2
ReplyDeleteFor those who have expressed a sense that I am not being representative of all the different expressions and voices of followers of Jesus who experience same-sex attraction:
I certainly acknowledge the diversity of expression among those who experience same-sex attraction and hold to a traditional biblical sexual ethic. To my best understanding I have referred to this diversity regularly on this blog. In this particular post I reiterate my conviction that each individual has the autonomy to describe their experience in the manner they choose that they feel is most consistent with their beliefs and values. I know and honour the stories of those who choose to not identify as gay and for those who seek to express their sexuality primarily through their marriage to an opposite gender spouse. There are times, however, that the sharing of this experience and expression is communicated as the only or best way to experience God’s presence and faithfulness. This may certainly be their personal conviction. I’m not always sure, however, that it communicates an openness to consider the ways God is working through those with a different experience – even those who also share a traditional biblical sexual ethic. In generous space, we choose to humble ourselves (which is not to let go of our own convictions) to listen for the ways God is present in those who differ from us. In this space, we are strengthened in God’s presence because we are enlarged as we encounter him in unexpected places. There may be some folks who are unable to do this for very legitimate reasons – perhaps doing so would not strengthen them but only bring them confusion. They may be best served to have conversations around faith and sexuality with those who share their perspectives. That is fine. Engaging in generous space requires a certain maturity, humility and confidence in one’s convictions. This confidence means that we don’t have to project them on others when we have not earned the right to speak into their lives.
Part 3
ReplyDeleteA number of people present have suggested that they did not share my sense that some came with a posture of arrogance, accusation or assumption. Perhaps my perspective is different since I was on the receiving end of rather personal attacks of dishonesty, disingenuousness, promoting a pro-gay agenda etc. Perhaps my perspective is different when I feel a sense of protection for a vulnerable individual who shares about having been released from the hospital just two days prior after a suicide attempt and is followed by a commenter who says something along the lines of, “Sure it takes courage to talk about that – but it really takes courage to stand up for what is morally right.” Perhaps my perspective is different when I pick up on the comment/insinuation that because the film was produced by the Gay Christian Network it is part of the “train leaving the station ….. and the silencing of churches who hold to a traditional biblical sexual ethic”. Perhaps my perspective is different when comments are made that reduce all sexual minorities to a “gay community with an agenda to silence the church” that certainly fails to take into consideration the voices of same-sex attracted people who do hold to a traditional interpretation of Scripture on the question of same-sex relationships. It seemed that some of the commenters were making some assumptions about who I was referring to with the descriptions of this troubling posture – but by writing the blog as generally as I did, I was intentionally seeking to avoid pointing any one person(s) out. So, if you were there and you are wondering if I am referring to you, why don’t you assume that I’m not.
I guess a final remark I would make for those of you who want to know who’s ‘side’ I’m on …. Would be to say that I seek to the best of my ability to be on Jesus’ side. To be alert to where he is present and to join him in loving, restoring and reconciling people to himself. To those who are deeply concerned that I am inappropriately stewarding the influence they think I have, I would say that I seek to function out of a deep dependence on God and his Holy Spirit being the primary conduits of teaching, leading, guiding and correcting. If God can bring a Muslim person to the point of conversion through speaking through a dream, I am confident that he is more than able to guide a sexual minority in the way they should go as they integrate their faith and their sexuality. And should he ask to use me to be his mouthpiece, I am willing and ready to be obedient. In my experience, this almost always happens in the context of relationship where there is trust and mutuality established.
D.J.Free... thanks for the comment
ReplyDeleteMy relationship with Christ and my security in that relationship also causes me to not feel threatened by those who are identified as gay/lesbian who may also believe in Christ/or not.
May the Lord continue to speak and draw you closer to Him, and may you continue to be drawn deeper in God's immense love for you...His son.
bless you man.
"Sure it takes courage to talk about that – but it really takes courage to stand up for what is morally right"
ReplyDeleteI remember the man stating it this way
"It takes courage to talk about that, and it 'also' takes courage to stand up for what is morally right"
This statement comes not out of hatred or trying to pick one side or the other, but it comes from life experiences, and if we are taking welcoming the tension of all being in a spacious place, then this person is also welcomed with their experience and their thoughts.
Did you get to talk with that man who made that statement and why he said it?
Kenny - it seems you and I have different recollections of the words or tone of that particular comment. While you mention that this doesn't come from a place of hate - there was no suggestion that it did. However, in light of the rest of that individual's comments - which I won't attempt to reiterate word for word, it was quite clear that there was a specific 'side' this commenter was coming from. So I'm a bit puzzled that you would suggest this wasn't about picking a side.
ReplyDeleteI talked with people until we were literally kicked out of Regent - but this individual was not one of them. While I have a pretty good idea of some of the background context for that particular commenter based on what others have mentioned to me, I'll suspend drawing conclusions on why he said what he said. As to this individual being welcome - he was certainly welcome - and there was no attempt made to shut down his contribution. However, the kind of conversation that generous space seeks to nurture is best served by postures of humility, hospitality, graciousness and incarnation. I have heard from several people since the event who expressed dismay at the level of insensitivity on the part of the commenter to whom I referenced. Others did not sense that this individual was really seeking to be part of a generously spacious conversation - but was reiterating talking points from a more polarized discussion.
Wendy:
ReplyDeleteI guess we do. But that comes from our different positions at that venue, you as a facilitor and I as a member of the audience.
Maybe I should refrain from using the word hate, and be careful of the language I use.
I guess what I am trying to say is that all people have varying views that stem from upbringing, life experiences, faith etc.
If we are fostering generous spaciousness...we welcome the tension of that. I try hard not to pick sides...but rather hear both sides and out of that learn and grow as an individual. I learn to respect where people are at and the experiences that they come to the table with, even if they are different than mine. I try hard not to assume or formulate an opinion about someone until I have talked with them personally, but I am human, and in that humanness realize how much we all need Jesus.
I really appreciate these sentiments Kenny. I'm just not sure how to integrate what you've written here with your own blog post from which I quoted. In your post you seem to have assumed that the Christian young people in "Through My Eyes" lacked true hope since you felt they had found their hope in identifying as gay, were in captivity, and didn't share your traditional Biblical sexual ethic. When I read your post, that is how I understood what you had written. But based on the film, one doesn't know if these young people would describe their sense of hope as coming from identifying as gay - nor do you know if any of the individuals perhaps do share your perspective on Biblical interpretation regarding the inappropriateness of same-sex sexual behaviour. So it seemed your post posited some opinions - even if they were framed in questions, which may have been inaccurate, without speaking to any of the particular individuals.
ReplyDeleteHi Wendy:
ReplyDeleteI was interested to see what responses you would give in reply to the concerns of some readers, because while agreeing with you and though not sharing their concerns myself, I do not know how I would explain to someone who asked me.
I appreciate your graciousness, your desire to hear what God is doing and to follow His leading in what you say when encountering a diversity of perspectives and attitudes, and the emphasis on encouraging ("watering") what God is doing in the other person's life.
I recently read/viewed Yancy's Grace (Visual Edition), and he also points out how Christians find it easy to be gracious (or perhaps just "overlooking"?) in so many areas, yet do not extend the same grace to those who differ from them in areas of sexuality.
Thanks for helping expand the generous spaces in our communities. It's a much needed mission. God bless you as you follow His leading in it.
Thanks Rob - it is a learning process for all of us I think. It often comes down to our postures around how people are discipled. Are they discipled by being told what to do or are they discipled by being taught how to discern and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit (at the risk that they will do things differently than we might think they should)? The latter requires much deeper trust that God is the primary discipler and that he will bring to completion the good work that he has started in those who name his name.
ReplyDeleteDJ Free ..
ReplyDeleteKenny answered the question well.
I personally use the term post gay faith journey because I don't lable myself as or anybody gay or straight. I will say that SGA is a factor among some people. It's a factor in my life but God drew me out of homosexuality if you will and towards His best intended purpose for me.
I'll have to read through the last few comments a little more. I don't currently have the time but I really would like to read all the comments that were posted.
ReplyDeleteI think it might be possible that some of the commenters maybe were misunderstood. ie. maybe it is possible to believe that some people have responded in ways you have felt attacked Wendy but maybe that's because communication can be a tad difficult on this thread, or online since we really don't have a sense of the persons tone in their voice and we don't get to see the persons body language. Sometimes it's easy to draw to conclusions based upon what is said verses what really is said, or maybe just difficulty in saying the right words ... whatever the case may be, I think there might be some misunderstanding among some folks.
Anyways ...
I think the last few comments have been great convos.
Sarah, I'm really confused here. You say you you don't label yourself as anybody (gay or straight), but post-gay IS a label. And again, it's probably a label you DON'T want to use, because it's a label that comes with far more baggage than any of the LGBT terms do precisely because it is a label that bubbles up from postmodernism and says a lot more about your worldview than the aforementioned labels do. (As an example, TRUE "post-gay" people might tend to look down on anyone who feels they need to pin down their sexual expression in any one form - since from a secular postmodern view, there need not BE any given expression (there can be many - and all are valid), whereas the LGBT labels say nothing at all about one's religious or philosophical bents).
ReplyDeleteThe book "Pomosexuality" might be instructive for you here, and I'd bet after reading it, you'd NEVER want to use the label "post-gay" to describe yourself again!
DJ free- what I meant was to say that I don't label people ... I don't define folks by their attractions whether that be OGA or AGA. SGA is a factor in my life but I don't define myself by that. God does not look at His creation of humanity and says "that's my straight son in whom I'm well pleased"... or "that's my gay son in whom I'm well pleased"..He simply says that's my son or daughter in whom I'm well pleased. There is a difference. Often people have gone from labeling themselves as gay but then could flip the coin if you will and label themselves as ex-gay or culture will label with these terms. I do not define myself as post gay. I have a post gay biblical perspective of scriptures and a post gay faith journey. I have a relationship with Jesus and called into relationship with Him as His daughter and part of that journey is towards becoming secure in His love and allowing for Him to name and bless me in ways that perhaps my dad, siblings, and peers were unable to. And then to allow for His love to bring a security in who I am as a woman in a way that I couldn't or was unable to recieve from my mom. It's the journey out of being an orphan. It's God calling me out of and away from the identity as an orphan and learning to be a daughter in ways that are foreign to me since having lost my mother when I was 2 yrs of age and having a dad unable to meet my emotional needs. The journey is not only about laying down the gay identity for me but also the orphan identity. It's coming back around to the God who created me and asking the Lord to lead me into the truth of who God created me to be as a woman. When I was 14 I just came to believe that I didn't have to be but not sure what that meant since I came to that before I even heard of ex-gay mnistries. I saught scriptures. I made my lifestyle concruent with the scriptures and refused to describe or lable mysekf as gay or lesbian. Then I heard the testimony of John and Anne Paulk on Oprah. Then at 15 I learned of Exodus a year after I began this journey on my own completly led of Gods Spirit, this, I'm convinced. Post gay the best way to describe my views and faith journey since ex-gay can be confusing since it implies I was gay now I'm straight. So I don't label myself as ex-gay either. I'm on a journey towards being secure in Christs love, a daughter of God, and hold to a post gay biblical world view of scriptures.
ReplyDeleteWendy- with all do respect the video is produced by GCN. ND has withdrawn from their affiliation with Exodus...healing hadn't been referred to marriages that result in somebodies healing journey has been eeduced to mixed orientated relationships with people who label themselves as gay, reduce their marriage to per-ma-roommate ie Cure for Love... how does this represent the post gay biblical view of scriptures? The answer is that it doesn't eepresent the post gay faith journey at all. So where is the representation of the post gay faith journey? And you yourself hadn't had to process through faith and sexuality in the same way as somebody who is same sex attracted. Their are many gay christians who hold to traditional views of scripture. Where are side X representatives?
ReplyDeleteOne more thing DJ Free- I thought I'd add to my comments a little more of the context behind my question with regards to other people being offended by the testimony of somebody who's on a post gay journey. All you have to do is google some gay affirming church's and you will see a mockery made of my testimony and the testimony of others. There is a film called cure for love and at the tail end you see a conference an ex-gay survivor conference where somebody makes a mockery out of the post gay journey. I've seen other web sites with people making a mockery out of those people I've come to respect. I've had people say to me that I can't "bridge" unless I water down my stance on scriptures. I work in Vancouver's West End and Davie village where the LGBTQ Community is most consentrated. I do have friends who are in the lifestyle, I do kep up with the main sub culture of the LGBTQ community. I see the activism. I have had friends walk away from a friendship with me because of my faith journey. And then friends who tolerate each other and who occassionaly get into real deep convos. I have had friends who would vent at me over Prop 8 and having felt led just to listen. From where I am and what I see the majority I've come accross sadly DJ Free is not like you, I'd say it's a rarity to encounter somebody who is as open with others as much as you'd like others to be open with you. As for my friends who are in the lifestyle they know my story and my view of scriptures. And so I do come with questions... if being gay is just a description why do people internalize comments about homosexuality as if it's a personal attack when somebody says homosexuality is sin? If it's just a description why the need to identify with gay?
ReplyDeleteAnd one more thing Wendy :) We do emphasize being like Jesus, responding like Jesus. I don't think there was one encounter Jesus had where He did not confront wrong or misplaced behavior or a wrong belief system. To the woman who was caught in adultry Jesus gave her a very clear warning..."go and sin no more..." to another person He said "lest something far worse happens to you, go and sin no more. " I can describe other events but can anyone find an event with Jesus where He allowed sin to continue without drawing the line in the sand as if to say " this is the way to walk in..." here's life here's death, here's the way into the Kingdom, to the rich man he said sell all your belongings ...in other occassions he confronted the self rightouse... although He did save his wip for the religous leaders he still didn't allow sin to continue without addressing the behavior. So we sometimes picture Jesus as this passive guy when he saught aggressively to recover people for the Kingdom. How do we bring all this into context with all this bridging in light of the post gay faith journey that many within the gay christian movement would like to deny.
ReplyDeleteHi Sarah ...
ReplyDeleteI think I can find many times when Jesus did not directly address someone's life issues or sin ... the man born blind for one (Mark 8:22-28). But going beyond that you might take a look at the entire book of Judges. Time and time again we see God working with people who had lost the word of God and did what was right in their own eyes. We could go on to talk about the polygamy of Abraham (Gen 25:1-6) which God for some reason never addressed .. or the polygamy of King David and his son Solomon .. both of whom God seemed to be able to work with. I am leaving out of course the many other instances where God seemed approving of practices ( or at least silent about them) that we would reject today.
I have little time right now to develope this point as I am on break at work but it seems to me that God is well able to work with people that do not fit our exact picture of morality .. Perhaps God looks at the heart rather than the rule of law. Perhaps treating people with respect and dignity especially when they have not been so treated by much of the church is more important to God right now. Perhaps God looks at the disrespect and slandering that has been done in Christ's name against gay and lesbian as more than worthy of condemnation. (In fact if you check I Cor 5:11 or I Cor 6:9-10 you will find that 'slander' is listed right there on the list with sexual immorality. It seems strange to me that we make such a big deal about sexual immmorality but ignore the slander and villifying of the gay community that has come from the church especially since the bible seems to be concerned with both. I looking at this entire issue I have come to realize that there is no white knight except Christ .. that each of us on both sides of the divide have sinned and fallen short of what God has required ... In light of this .. it would seem that conversation is more redeemptive and Christlike than finger pointing. In closing I would say that I very much doubt that there are any lgbt folks in the world who are not aware of the conflict the church has with them .. Thus I don't know that it is necessary to brig it up at every opportunity. We do not do so in heterosexual morality situations so I don't see why we would need to do that here.
Blessings,
Dave
P.S. In case this came off as heavy .. please know that I am more writing in defense of Wendy's gracious approach rather than reacting to anything you have written.
Thanks Dave,
ReplyDeleteAt the same time when questioned directly about marriage Jesus was quick to refer to the creative account of Adam and Eve. I know I'd have to study more and learn how to more effectively communicate, I can say however, that Jesus extended both grace and truth in harmony within the context of his encounters. When the time came there was this sense of him being very direct and confrontational in both to the religious leaders and to the "sinner".
Why are people so quick to point out who the "sinner" is or throw the "them" label around? More time is spent arguing over who is right and wrong rather then trying to build a loving God filled community of believers. Why can't we make an effort at getting along and getting to know one another's hearts and getting to know how we each individually feel about Jesus? If people believe that its their mission to change others - and coming from someone who is thrown into the "sinner" and "them" category quite often by others, believe me if that were to ever happen in my life, it would be because you invested in me, and built a relationship with me, graciously loved me, rather then standing on your side telling me what you believe the real truth is or what you believe Jesus wants me to know. People would much rather point out the "sin" in my life, rather then actually giving any time to get to know me as a person, or to even get to know my heart. This is where an instant divide is made and then there is no chance of relationship or community.
ReplyDeleteWendy thank you for being a bridge in my life, for not casting me into any category, and for not putting a label on me, other then friend, and for continually pointing me back to Jesus.
Tams -- I'm sorry if that's been your experience. There is a scripture verse that quotes Jesus as taking care of the log that's in our own eye before the spec that's in another. There is good reason for the church to not compromise biblical truth for this very reason. For this very reason it's important that we not only speak the truth in the church but also live and walk out the truth. The problem with not actually speaking truth is the fact that we give less opportunity for the church to live and walk out truth in such a way that enables us to walk out truth in the grace given to us in Christ Jesus our Lord.
ReplyDeleteIt's not about pointing a finger at somebody. I have accountability people in my circle and in this circle are friends who hold to biblical truth and who are not afraid of speaking truth to me. And I listen to their advice. They do not water down the scriptures and are grace filled.
It isn't about judging others and condemning others. You are very right it is very much so relational. I think if our church's were more relational then some of our misunderstanding wouldn't exist.
As much as it's important to be grace filled it is equally important to walk out the truth in our lives as is important not to water down the scriptures to make theology say what it does not say.
Our church's need to be a place where truth is spoken and grace given. In a way that's balanced and respectful and Christ like.
Hi Sarah..
ReplyDeleteAppreciate your comments ... I would also add that along with the things God never addressed in the Old Testament is a very large issue in the New Testament .. the issue of slavery ... Jesus was certainly aware of it .. but not only does He not address it .. He even uses master / slave relationships in many of his parables. So this would be an exmaple where he allowed sin to continue .. just as the Old Testament has many examples where God allowed sin to continue.
Also .. I agree that there is a time and place to talk to people about aspects of their lives that we might find sinful or disagree with. But that should certainly not be the first thing out of our mouths. People like Wendy or Tony Campolo, for example, have made their stance rather clear ... but they have, IMHO, done it in such a way that does not diminish the humanity of the hearer.
Again .. I doubt you could find a gay person in the world that does not know what the church at large thinks about same sex sex. However .. few of those people have ever experienced the love of Christ expressed through the church. They have experienced a lot of stereotyping and slander (esp here in the U.S.). At the end of the day .. if your morals are right but you have no knowledge of Christ .. what does it matter?
Graciousness / generous spaciousness as Wendy calls it or safe harbor as I call it invites people into the safety of Christ's embrace and love (and salvation) and .. from that place of security .. gives them the space and safety to work out their salvation just like all other Christians do.
Blessings,
Dave
Often times when interacting with folks of a different faith, different moral stance, different theology, regardless if the person is gay or straight I will always consider and appreciate the response from my youth pastor and his wife. They loved me and they spoke truth, they challenged my thinking, they mentored me towards the cross and to find my identity in Christ. When they spoke of homosexuality they addressed it in the same light as all sexual sin. That to say, when we as a church or ministry shy away from calling homosexuality sin a red flag for me goes up. My youth pastor and his wife came along side but at the same time were never gay affirming with me. They spoke truth, they loved well, and they walked out their faith. When I meet people who identify themselves as gay, when I work with folks living in sin, when I know friends who are living in sin I don't go out of my way to point out every flaw I think I might see in a person. Being in relationship with people is different then when we are teaching. When we're teaching or when we're having a theological discussion. I don't make theology fit my lifestyle and don't water down scriptures to relieve tension that may exis I remain true to my testimony, I make a stand when I sense it's a necessity. I am not gay affirming in relationship or in my testimony but remain respectful. Just the other night I had dinner with a couple of guy friends. Both call themselves gay Christian and both were former partners. One goes back and forth in his lifestyle and the other is consistent with a gay lifestyle and actively involved in his church. Faith came into conversation. One I had more freedom to talk about theology and the other I felt it wasn't time. However, if discussion flows that way I don't shy away from sharing my personal testimony and faith.
ReplyDeleteIn the space of extending grace what is our theology? What are we teaching? Because the church in relationship will be teaching more so with our actions then in words. It is true to say that while we were still sinners Christ died and when the scriptures say that For God so loved the world I don't see homosexuals being excluded from Gods love. I do see the cross we're called to pick up as we become followers of Christ and Jesus said if you love me you'll obey. It means our love to Christ is revealed in our obedience to Christ. In his word I see we're called to lay down our lives and become living sacrifices... There is a reason I don't identify myself as gay. That's because God is calling me to trust in Him and to identify myself as the woman He created me to be. I believe that we see dignity and honor restored when we see the other not in their brokenness but who they are in Christ even if that person cannot help but to only see themselves as the person they became as a result of experiencing the reality of being born into brokenness and sin. It's a real hinderence when people lable me or describe me as gay and degrading to me as a person if they can't see past my brokenness and relate to me as the person I am in Christ. To view myself and identify with Christ is to also share in the resurrection power of Jesus Christ and thrusts me towards greater healing in Christ. In our "bridging" what are we teaching? Are we teaching that our sexuality is as fixed as the color of our skin? I have yet to see a gay gene discovered and since no gay gene has been discovered I think this invites us towards thinking about the potential for change within the context of what is realistic. I think it is possible to walk away prematurely because we didn't see the exact changes we hoped to see in the time we had hoped for. People are quick to label Exodus as homophobic when what you see are the lives of hundreds of thousands of people who can testify to experiencing some healing in their lives. I've been on the end of walking away and giving up prematurely because I didn't see results quick enough... I wonder how many oyhers did as well. Of course I came back around a few years ago to see some of things I believed that were wrong... it's good to be challenged in our thinking as we wrestle with our faith, sexuality and theology and some of us will have a testimony that will always call to question the agenda found within much of gay activism.
ReplyDeleteI didn't have time to comolete my thoughts. There are folks out there who not only try to make a mockery of somebody on a post gay faith journey but they do whatever they can to try to discredit the potential for change. Some folks believe so strongly that they were born gay that that they speak as though that theory is fact when it's only a theory. It's the same as those who believe that we all came from apes. I suppose that's a persons decision to validate behavior because it's seen among animals but I wouldn't want to justify myself because an ape does it or bats or whatever animal. I'm a woman created in the image of God which calls us men and women set apart from animals. I think it is possible to regress due to the fall but if we're held bound because of the fall then we fail to see the full works of Christ. And then their are others who try to discredit a persons testimony of ongoing change and healing in their lives because they themselves have not experienced change. I don't discredit a persons testimony whether they come from the side of saying they can't "change" or the one who experienced a great deal of "change" in their lives and have gone beyond a mixed orientated relationship or beyond identifying or describing their marriage as a per-ma-roommate and have gone on to step away from homosexuality and to basicaly go on to experience marriage in the fullness to what God intended marriage to be. I myself have not experienced a great deal of change with regards to SGA but I've stopped placing such barriers to God and therefor placing limits on God as if to believe that God can't do something when there just might be a possibility that God might be much bigger then SGA and much bigger then some of what could have led to SGA. So, I myself have taken the poster of allowing God to work in me being open to whatever God can do. When I look back I honestly can't believe that I'd ever come to the place of seeing myself as a woman knowing that this was Gods work done and not something forced. When before I thought I was committing myself to be celibate I'm now considering the possibility of there being so much more to life that God has for me then what I've experienced to date. It's one thing to suggest for yourself you can't change but another to suggest that others can't change based upon your experiences and I sometimes wonder how many folks make that assumption. I had written before that our churches need to be a olace where truth is spoken ang grace is given. We shouldn't have to lesson our experiences and the truth in scripture just to lesson somebody's offense to the scriptures. At the same time I'm not suggesting people side with Phelps because he's just as wrong with both theology and response. When my friends ask me who or what I am, when they ask me if I'm gay there is a wide open door to share my testimony and to discuss theology as well as current research done towards finding what if any genetics play in the development of SGA. I think it's equally important for others who might not have had to deal with SGA there are other "sins" and struggles, other sexual sins and struggles and there is an importance to be real and authentic with what's happening but bottom line is when the full truth is not spoken in our church's especially from the pulpit whether that's as a Pastor in a church or director / ministry leader in a para-church ministry then we really do a disfavor especially to those who legitametly seeking God and surrendering every aspect of their sexuality to the Lord and it does nothing to recover others for the Kingdom. It would be equally important to be relational but we don't have to back down from truth to be relational. That said I know of some folks who won't allow a relationship to grow because one person is not convinced that people are born gay and same sex relationship to be a viable alternative option.
ReplyDelete@Sarah: I can see where you are coming from. It is fair enough that you hold the believes you do and that you want your church to tell the truth as you have come to understand it. However, I find it unfair that you accuse others of discrediting your way when in fact you're not doing anything else. You see... if we were in church together, I could celebrate with you your call for celibacy. I could celebrate with you if at one point you decided to marry a man that you love and if you experience a shift in your sexuality. I'd be ok with you telling your story and your experience and give testimony to what you feel God has called you to.
ReplyDeleteYet I'm not sure if you would celebrate my love for and relationship with my partner with me. I'm not sure if you would be ok with me giving testimony to the blessings I experienced in this relationship.
Don't get me wrong. If this is a topic that is major to you, I'm not sure if there is another way in the end. But I just don't feel that your stance is more accepting and tolerant that that of people who say that you are born gay and can only live a life faithful to who you are if you fully embrace this. Again: it is your full right to say what you say. But it is also the full right of people from "the other side".
Personally, I'm very much drawn to the generous space Wendy is suggesting. But I'm also wondering how this will work. Because I also see that it is important for me to be in an environment where the love between me and my partner is celebrated and not just tolerated.
Sarah, I wish you all the best on your path. I'm glad that you found a meaningful way to live with your feelings. And I have the utmost respect for your choice to stay true to what you feel God is calling you to. I hope you will experience all the love and support by your community that you need to live your calling. God bless you!
Hi Sarah,
ReplyDeleteI find it interesting that you did not answer my examples but jumped to another topic .. not that you have to respond to my posts ..
On a different note...
Just to let you know .. here in America, orientation change has been used as a political weapon that is brought out every time gay rights issues or bills come up in politics. There are typically a bunch of adds that say gay people can change (and thus there is no need for them to be protected). This is presented in a way that makes it sound so easy to change .. (which, from what you have shared, I think you know this is not the case) Not to put too fine of a point on it but Exodus is typically the source of those ads. This would IMHO clearly be one of the reasons you may be feeling a lack of acceptance of your unique experience or position.
I also noticed in what you said that you seem to believe that to identify as gay is to identify as sinful.. the vibe I also pick up from you is that you view the feelings themselves as sinful. Correct me if I misread you on this. I would also add that in my denomination (Church of the Nazarene) .. emotions and feelings are considered amoral (morally neutral). And my church hs directly applied this to the issue of having same sex feelings in an official paper by the General Superintendents of my denomination. So if you or people in the exgay movement make statements that refer to feelings as sinful you are going directly against our theology, which does not come from any gay affirming source but from the depths of our Wesleyean beliefs.
You are certinaly entitled to identify yourself in any way you wish according to you personal belief system .. I would just ask that you recognize that this may not always line up with other belief systems and how other people view themselves.
Blessings,
Dave
P.S. Just so you know .. I am a straight, Side B, licensed minister of the gospel in the Church of the Nazarene
Opinions,yes, we all have opinions. You have opinions, I have opinions. We both speak these out,and frame them in questions. Just as we assume people are saying one thing, without speaking to the particular individual,much like what happened with some of the people you wrote about on your reflections on Vancouver, without talking with them directly, but spoke about their positioning and why they came to the meetings, and film viewing.
ReplyDeleteI can see how I may have done this too, as I reviewed the film.
I viewed the film from the lens of the life I have lived,through my experienced journey with same sex attraction, being actively gay identified and involved with healing ministries...such as New Direction Ministries.
I come to the table with these life experiences...and can resonate with Tams and her experience. I remember when that was the case for me, and when it still is the case for me. We all come to the table with differing life experiences and we are all at a different place. Be it theologically, spiritually, emotionally and sexually.
To live in the generous spaciousness is to walk this out in dignity and respect. Just as Jesus did. He was God incarnate. This is not about my view is more right than yours, rather, it is about realizing that we are "all sinners" in need of a loving savior...Jesus Christ.
What I have come to encounter and this is my own experience...is that because I have come out of a gay identity and I have 'changed', that to even use the word 'change' is to insinuate that my mission is to change people...or make them change...when in reality, that is the work of the Trinity working together in people's lives.
I love the church
I love the marginalized
I love my neighbor
I love Holiness
I love my Father God more than I love my life...and others...and in loving God more and experiencing His extravagant love for me in turn, I love my life and I love other people's lives.
Continued...
ReplyDeleteMy mission is to walk in the fullness and submission to my heavenly Father...and to love holiness more than my own happiness and out of that experience much joy.
As I keep reading the comments, I really think we are trying so hard to explain our position...and that if you have a differing position you are not gracious and or humble or loving.
There has been a lot of hurt. Hurt within the Church, hurt within society/culture?
Where is our hope? In whom do we hope? If we are hurt from the church...what do we do? To whom do we go to? Each one of us is the church and within the church community at large is a whole bunch of hurting, insecure, weak, sinful, obscene, loving, gracious, meek, humble, liars, slanderers, gossipers, peacemakers, prophets who are called to love one another. Who are called to pray with one another. Who are called to spur one another on in holiness and to the prize set before them, which is the hope of glory...to stand in front of our savior with boldness and without blame...to seek to be without wrinkle and spot.
Regardless of our gender, sexuality, our position, we are called to lay down our lives. In doing so we gain our life.
I have opinions...some are good, some are being refined and some are hard to give up...but I need to submit even my opinions to the Lord...so he can sift them and cut off what isn't of value or good for the whole 'church community'.
IMHO...
We can get into what Jesus said, what Jesus didn't say...and in that we can validate this or validate that...but we need to also remember that Jesus was God incarnate. His values, his views stem from creation...and created intent for humanity. I think sometimes we get stuck in the gospels and lose out on the rest of the inspired word of God...which Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are fully present in.
I am hopeful. Hopeful that the Bride of Christ will rise to holiness. That the bride would seek out holiness at all cost, that no matter what is asked they will obediently do it, even if it is hard, difficult and seemingly impossible. That the Bride of Christ will fall passionately in love with it's groom Jesus, who is even now preparing a wedding feast.
Wow... I must say, 61 comments on one post is an impressive feat! Thank goodness blogger.com provides textually generous spaciousness! ;-)
ReplyDeleteHi Wendy, saw you on youtube, anyway, I am so so so so so glad to see people who want to LOVE the gay community without consenting to their lifestyle choices. I also know that we must be empathetic to people who want to change but whose struggle rages on for their entire lives. Same-sex attraction is not an easy struggle and I can't imagine the difficulty but I know that we can "do all things through Christ" who strengthens us (Phillipians 4). Bless You in your ministry. -
ReplyDeleteDave I think I did answer your questions to the best of my ability and where I struggled to really communicatel as I've engaged in this thread I've done so with my oppinions but also from the place of seeking to actually learn. Sometimes we have to wrestle with our belief systems and as Kenny pointed out submit them to Christ. Where I struggled to find a response that seemed to convey more of what I was trying to convey I think I pointed to Kenny's response. There really was no point to add a post to quote Kenny instead I just pointed to his response.
ReplyDeleteKenny I've appreciated your responses here in this thread.
Dave you challenge me and I don't see that as a bad thing but an opportunity to learn. That said we mght differ still n our beliefs. It also has to be said that I know I don't have all the answers and I'm not always the one who's right... I am human and I do make mistakes and I'm still learning. This whole journey is really about process. That process will lead some to celibacy and that process will lead others towards experiencing change to various degrees. In my own experience I have experienced some change which does include shifts within my sexual orientation, I used to be pretty fixed and completetly same gender attracted and like many folks who identified as transgender I couldn't see myself asba woman. In fact I felt emotionally and mentaly like one of the guys and felt trappped in my own body. I was not attracted to men and had never felt any attraction towards men untill just a few years ago afterba few years of walking out my own personal faith journey. I didn't know how to relate with other women let alone as a woman. I can recall one day waking up after years of trusting and struggling at times to find hope for healing and I wasn't necessarily looking to become straight. I did in the past but on my healing journey ended up focusing less on "making myself straight" and more on walking with Jesus allowing for Him to speak to me and tell me what His purpose is for my life and to learn His intended purpose for my life had been before sin created havoc in my life. Do I think same sex attraction itself is sin? no I don't but at the same time it does reveal the state of humanity and result of being born into a sin infected world that not one single man or woman can escape from apart from Christ. I have a choice at this point n my journey between nurturing same sex desires or nurturing holiness. I don't choose my struggles or temptations but at this point for me, it's my realitt and not necessarily the reality of others but in my case same gender attraction becomes a minor issue in light of what God is doing in my life. By minor issue I mean same gender attraction has diminished with it's intensity. I find now that I have a choice between which passions and desires I want to stir up. At this point I'm single so I choose to fuel my passion and desire for Christ and really ponder and take in the deeper things God is currently doing and there in that place I find new desires being stirred up. It's pointing to a whole new reality that I've never known which includes a work of becoming more secure in myself as a woman. Lord knows it's a journey I'm still on and I've just barely scratched the surface. Why would I go back? Why would I not share my testimony? It says in revelations with regards to the church ... they over came him (satan) by the blood of the lamb, the word of their testimony, not loving their lives unto death.
Hi Sarah … (Part 1)
ReplyDeleteI was using scripture to challenge the view you were putting forth that God / Jesus always addresses a person’s every sin. As I showed in some of the examples it seems to me that God /Jesus refuses to fit into the boxes that we sometimes try to put them in. In terms of how to respond to people there is a lot of gray .. its not all black and white. The general response is redemptive .. meeting people where they are ( in slavery / polygamy / whatever) and leading from that point forward .. this may or may not include the (to our eyes) most prominent issue but rather focuses on where we perceive the Holy Spirit to be working in their lives. This is something that as a pastor I do across the board, not just with this one issue.
On self identity …
How you view yourself and whether you view a particular part of yourself as a product of the corruption that entered the world is an issue of personal preference. I used to hold a rather black and white view on this but have since softened quite a bit … the one scripture that does direct me here is when Jesus is about to heal a blind man and his disciples asked him a question in John 9:1…
1 As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
3 “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him. 4 As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5 While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”
Jesus does not attribute this man’s blindness to his own sins .. nor to his parents sins (nor, by extrapolation, even to Adam’s sin) In other words he does not give the standard theological answer that this man is born blind as a result of original sin. Instead Jesus says that the man was born blind so that God’s work would be manifest in him. Now .. in this case .. God’s work resulted in him having his sight restored .. but I am sure there are other ways that God’s work could be manifest. It would not be correct to assume if other people who are blind do not experience what this man experienced that they didn’t try hard enough or stay faithful long enough. Carrying this example further .. Consider parents who have a special needs child .. or .. Consider a person born with ADHD ..or bipolar disorder .. or clinical depression .. or with a condition somewhere on the autism / asperger spectrum or any other attribute or ability or disability. In each of these cases parents or a person could process this differently … Some might wish that their child would not have this condition / attribute (perhaps even viewing it as a product of sin in the world) … others might love them and appreciate every aspect of their child including this particular attribute or condition.. Additionally.. an adult with any of these attributes / conditions that I listed might be perfectly content with this aspect of themselves and rejoice in it. .. while others might view it as an aspect of themselves that they hate or wish to control or suppress. In none of these situations would I want to go to the individual or parent and say something insensitive like: ‘Well this is just a product of the sin nature’ Nor would I presume to say .. ‘Wow you have been blessed by God in a special way’. These individual aspects of a person are amoral (neither good nor evil). Instead each person needs to process their uniqueness in their own way. I don’t know that there is a right or wrong answer except perhaps for a response that would be self destructive or emotionally unhealthy.
go to part 2
Part 2...
ReplyDeleteI think you know where I am going with this … These same principles apply to gender identity or sexual orientation issues. The allegory fails a bit here because some might interpret this in the negative due to the type of illustrations I have used. Looking past that … the principles are the same … Individuals internally process who they are differently. Some of that processing is more philosophical than it is a biblical or moral absolute.
Scripture says absolutely nothing about the attributes or conditions I mentioned. Likewise, scripture says nothing about having same sex desires or gender identity questioning or intersex conditions. Scripture only addresses certain actions.
You have processed who you are in your own unique way .. When we work out our internal self understanding we are not always concerned about what others will think of what we are doing because we are focused on our own path. The main point of what I am saying here is that (with the exception of the morals of same sex sex) scripture does not address the issue. Thus when I see ideas expressed as absolutes .. such as: ‘same sex desire is sin’ .. or ‘the opposite of same sex desire is holiness’ .. I get concerned. There is enough of a shame load already on these issues that has (sadly) been introduced by the church and the world … Because of this people are afraid to even bring up same sex attraction or gender identity issues for fear of ridicule or condemnation. I don’t wish to add to that by saying that certain feelings are sinful or unholy. This entraps people into a box where they are afraid to think and feel and explore.
Exploring self identity in these areas is not a well traveled path. By all means I would encourage you in your journey … just keep in mind some of the things I have said above .. that what may be absolute to you is not absolute to others. (This is not moral relativism here -- God knows what is right and wrong -- It is simply a caution not to go beyond what the Word says). I do appreciate your openness to share your journey here .. obviously you have been through a lot .. may the Lord continue to bless you and continue to provide light for your path.
Blessings and peace to you,
Dave
Challenge is all good :) Challenge away because I can't grow and learn without being challenged. :) O've personally appreciated our interactions. It may not be communicated that well in my responses so I thought to make a special note of appreciation to your thought provoking comments.
ReplyDeletePart 1 ... What was Gods original intent though Dave? What originaly intended and what has become our present reality because of original sin of Adam and Eve we're born into sin. The ground was cursed and the surpent was cursed leaving mankind to walk out the consequences of sin. As a result of sin entering the picture toil, hardship, relational brokeness, disease, bloodshed came into a world now dealing with the consequences of sin. In Romans One we see a picture of the whole of creation groaning, and waiting for the sons of God to be revealed upon the earth. God desires to bring renewal and restoration to His creation including us who are born into a now less than perfect world.
ReplyDeleteGo to Part 2
Part 2 ... I have a friend who was born with Spinabifita. She's been experiencing partial healing and it's been amazing to watch. My younger sister had nothing but complications surrounding her birth. Doctors gave her a 50/50 chance of survival. The pleasenta had stopoed feeding her and it was at a critical time for the development of her lungs, and the doctors saw signs of Spinabifita. In the week leading up to my stepmom having an emergency c- section I watched as my sister struggled. I listened to the ever weakening heart beat of my sister till her heart beat barely registered. In the weeks leading up her open spine closed and her lungs developed at the last possible moment. I continued to pray believing for healing. Two years later though mirraculously my sister was born healthy all things considering, doctors noted an abnormality in her blood count. Doctors prepared my parents with the news that these could be signs of hodgkins disease. For months I prayed against this cancer that was at war within my sisters body. For months blood work continued but I kept praying. Somehow unexpectantly her blood count normalized ... continue to part 3
ReplyDeletePart 3 ... Why did my Mother have to suffer? Why didn't God heal her? I think sometimes we want answers that aren't necessarily found in scripture... eg. God is using this or that to pour out his wrath or using this or that to teach me something... God will use experiences to make himself known and to give God the glory but sickness and disease was never the intended purpose for anybody. It happens no doubt because we are born into a world with the ground cursed and less than perfect world at that. I'm not going to say God can't bring healing when I know He can. Who am I to place any kind of limitations on God or to place God in a box to say He heals this way but not that way, brings this kind of healing but not that kind of healing. For many of us especially for those of us having to reckon with same gender attraction, the journey can be likened to the blind man who received partial healing when Jesus took him by the hand and led him across town. I can imagine that God met with this blind man in the midst of his brokenness, his blindness, and the shame that came as a result of being marginalized and stigmatized because of his blindness... and like many of us it really is taking the hand of Jesus and walking with Him in our blindness and brokenness and like the complete restoration of this mans sight God desires to do that for us but how is not for me to say and it's not even for me to say when but one thing I know I wont receive my glorified body until Christ returns and so there are elements I'll be faced with until then. With that all said, I don't always understand the scripture but the scriptures are truth and I don't think I can change the scriptures to fit whatever lifestyle I want. So, where do I go to find my identity? It's not from my experiences and feelings. I find my identity in Christ through the scriptures. It is in Gods word I learn who I am in Christ. It's also the same scriptures that teach me who Christ is in me. I've seen and experienced God heal in many different ways and in similar way as the blnd man experience Jesus take his hand and walk with him in the place of his partial healing I've experienced the same. There is a time to speak truth yes but there is also a time to take the hand of the other. The point isn't to be so heavy on truth there is no grace but the point isn't to give such careless grace that really gives no chance for an individual to turn away from their own personal sin. God uses His body in partnership with the Holy Spirit. Like the eunich said, How can I understand without there being an explination. Clearly God sent the disciple, can't remember who but the eunich saught understanding and new the importance to understand something that apparently was difficult for him to understand. So God used the disciple to bring context to the word ultimatly leading the eunich to truth.
ReplyDeleteHi Sarah,
ReplyDeleteIts taken me a while to get back to this thread. I don't really have a problem with anything you have said here Sarah. The mystery of why some are healed and others not is one of those ongoing mysteries. I am not sure if I want to enter into that discussion. My basic point from my previous post is that some folks get to the place where they are satisfied that whatever they were trying to change isn't going to change and they come to accept that. I confess that I am not entirely clear on what point you are trying to make. So perhaps it would be easier to ask some straight up questions...
1. Would you consider it acceptable for someone who has a physical condition to come to a place where they stop seeking physical healing, put the matter in God's hands and move on with life (assuming that this would not lead to their demise)? And if so would that make them lesss holy or less godly or less faithful?
2. Would you consider it acceptable for someone who has a mental health condition (such as a bipolar condition, ADHD, or OCD to name a few) to come to a place where they stop seeking spiritual healing, put the matter in God's hands and move on with life (with perhaps medical maintenance if needed) ? And if so would that make them lesss holy or less godly or less faithful?
3. Would you consider it acceptable for someone who is attracted to the same sex to come to a place where they stop seeking spiritual healing (change of desires), put the matter in God's hands and move on with life (lets assume they choose celibacy here)? And if so would that make them less holy or less godly or less faithful?
I think this is the crux of the matter. Look forward to hearing from you..
God bless,
Dave