It seems to me that the usefulness of the description mixed-orientation marriage is less for the individual who might use it for themselves and more to aid in clarification and understanding in the larger conversations. The description, I think, does something very important. It brings a level of honesty and authenticity into the conversation. As I see it, the description is intended to be value-neutral. It isn’t a judgment on someone’s marriage.
If anything, where there has been honest disclosure of the reality of same-sex attraction, I have seen people in mixed-orientation marriages be much more intentional about their pre-marital preparation and their investment in the relationship during the marriage. Because there is a unique area of vulnerability, the strongest mixed-orientation marriages have very clear priorities and commitments, making use of accountability and support in a committed and consistent manner. In my experience, where there is a good level of self-acceptance on the part of both spouses that same-sex attraction is simply a part of their reality that they need to steward and navigate there is a greater capacity to maintain the fidelity that is consistent with their beliefs and values. And as I have often said, there are some very vibrant and healthy mixed orientation marriages.
I’m afraid, however, that these are the stories that don’t really make the headlines in this conversation. The headlines are the marriage break ups. The headlines are the individuals who emerge from denial and hiddenness. The headlines are the double-life exposures. The headlines are that folks who’d claimed to be healed but now evidence ongoing same-sex attraction. In the midst of these headlines are real people experiencing significant pain as they seek to come to grips with their honest reality. It is deeply unfortunate that such stories become fodder for the culture wars.
Because the truth is, marriage can be very difficult – whether same-sex attraction is part of the mix or not. And marriage break-down brings great pain – regardless of the catalyst.
Someone made this comment on a previous blog:
“I can't help but respond to your several references regarding the difficulties of mixed-orientation marriages. In our society, marriages are quickly crumbling if there is no sexual fulfillment. Marriages without some form of emotional spark can become drab much easier. My marriage started with emotional intensity, but it was not long before reality demonstrated that a fulfilling relationship requires more than sexual excitement; it needs on-going work and commitment. Is there any value in reassuring mixed-orientation relationships that in a significant number of heterosexual marriages, eventually one or both partners will no longer experience sexual fulfillment? In fact, one partner may become quite negative about sexual intimacy. Respectful compromises can be found and other areas of intimacy can become more fulfilling and certainly more stabilizing.”
Such a comment highlights the challenge that the heterosexual majority has in imagining life in a mixed-orientation marriage. It also highlights the mistaken assumption that the deficits that may be experienced in a mixed orientation marriage are merely experienced in the arena of sexual arousal and climax. This capitulates to a very reductionistic understanding of same-sex sexuality.
My response to the comment was: “Your observations about heterosexual marriages are important and probably not honestly articulated as often as should be within Christian communities. However, it is perhaps a bit naive to suggest that those in mixed-orientation marriages are unaware that marriage in general is difficult.
There are many in mixed-orientation marriages who are quietly and faithfully making a life together with plenty of unique accommodations and compromises and discovery of their own rhythm of intimacy and grace.
So while I have tried to point out the reality that mixed-orientation marriages are not something I would recommend, I would also be the first to say that I know some couples who are experiencing a life-giving marriage and the richness of God's grace together. Marriages need both intimacy and fidelity - and that can be navigated and stewarded well.
Why does any marriage come to a point of separation and divorce? Could we always just say, "Try harder? Make more compromises? Give more of yourself?"

The temptation for those of us in marriages who do make daily choices to remain faithful and to find innovative expressions of intimacy despite disappointment, loneliness and grief is to intimate that it is simply an issue of motivation. However, in a posture of humility and grace, we seek to listen well, to love unconditionally and to reserve judgment for God who fully knows the heart.
When we seek to hold in tension issues of authenticity, intimacy and fidelity, there is no mathematical formula that neatly works for every human being .... and at the end of the day, we are all desperately dependent on grace.”
I had a conversation with a long time friend a few days ago. This individual has been in a mixed-orientation marriage for many years. There is honesty, mutual respect and mutual support in their marriage relationship. But there are also deficits. This friend is struggling to know what he makes of the generous spaciousness posture of New Direction. On one hand, something about the dialogue and the acknowledgment of difference attracts him. On the other hand, there is tension. And the tension is complex. The freedom in generous spaciousness to not judge or feel compelled to demand repentance from those who hold an affirming view of covenanted same-sex relationships is both threatening and attractive. The willingness to relinquish some certainty for a posture of humility seems to smell like Jesus but also raises red flags. The language of modernity-shaped evangelicalism peeks through in concerns about “the truth” and “there can only be one right response”. But even these words connect to some confusion about whether that is really the way to move forward and whether that really conveys the good news of a personal and relational Jesus. And underneath all the thinking, reflecting and struggling are the haunting questions about their long-ago choice to live life in the covenant of a mixed orientation marriage. “If I embrace generous spaciousness what will that do to my motivation and foundation for my own marriage?” “If I make space for gay Christians who experience fulfillment in a gay marriage – what does that mean for me in the reality of the disappointment and deficits that my spouse and I experience in our marriage?”
From a purely intellectual perspective, one can separate the two. An individual needs to own their decisions and commitments. They need to clarify their beliefs and values around fidelity and intimacy and then live in alignment with those values. But in the tangible reality of our human longing and disappointment and grief – the things that rise up in our heart in the middle of the night when we cannot sleep – such neat compartmentalization falls short.
The reality is, those in long term mixed-orientation marriages often deeply love one another. They have shared a depth of experience and life that means something. At the same time, in the depth of that shared life, there can be a poignant awareness that something is absent – something that transcends the normal challenge of married life. One same-sex attracted man said with great emotion that he had on occasion prayed that God would just take him home so that his straight wife could have a second chance and be loved by a straight husband the way she deserved. What a sign of love and devotion. What a gnawing sense of loss.
Our tendency in hearing something like this is to try to fix it. Some may think they just need to go to the right program, or get more prayer, or more counseling. Rest assured, this couple has gone above and beyond in pursuing God’s transforming grace. Others will want to affirm to them that God will understand and extend grace through separation and divorce because he wants them to be happy and fulfilled. This most often seems shallow and selfish to this couple and not representative of their love and commitment to God and to each other over the years.
I know another couple, both now affirming in their theological views about gay marriage, who have chosen to stay together. The man openly identifies as gay. This isn’t threatening to the wife. Together they model love and grace in living in the tension. I know another couple, both now affirming in their views, who had a ceremony in which they released one another from their vows and blessed one another to enter new covenants of love. They had the support and prayers of their faith community around them in this bittersweet transition.
Is one right? The other wrong? Is grace in one situation but lacking in the other? Is fear motiving one and love motivating the other?
If you speak to the four individuals represented by these different outcomes, you will encounter people of devout commitment to Jesus, people grateful for and exuding God’s grace, humble people who simply did the best they could in their unique situation to follow Jesus, to love well, and to move into their futures with honesty, authenticity and faith.
To me, this isn’t a matter of “everyone doing what is right in their own eyes” devoid of spiritual reflection. In both of these situations, the couples in question wrestled with Scripture and in prayer, reflected on their experiences and used the good minds God had given them. They also invited their community of faith to journey with them, to pray for them, and also to discern with them.
As someone with more than a decade of experience in pastoral care, you learn that a cookie cutter approach to these challenging realities will fall short. There is no formula. As pastors, we walk with people in their pain, disappointment and struggle. We wrestle with them to hear the voice of the Lord. We create a safe place to be present in the pain. We groan with the rest of creation awaiting the full consummation of Christ’s victory – when our tears will be wiped away, love will be perfect, and there will be no regret.
But now, we see through a glass dimly. We come to the foot of the cross with our deepest longings, with the parts of ourselves that feel so profoundly unfulfilled. We come with the visions of what could have been or what might yet be. We come with our fragile hopes and our cacophony of disappointment and resignation. We come wanting to energize our life’s decisions from a foundation of love rather than the house of fear. We come so weary from our best efforts seemingly always falling short. We come not wanting to discount our love, our care, our concern, protection and desire to serve. We come with wordless groans.
We are stuck in this time between the times. And sometimes it is so very hard to discern what that means in the practical reality of day-to-day life. Are we called to suffer and sacrifice in solidarity with Christ? Are we called to risk, to break out of frightened legalism into the freedom of a second chance? What counts more: our need for wholistic intimacy or our need to be faithful? Intimacy humanizes us. Fidelity humanizes us. Why does it sometimes feel like we have to choose one over the other?
The reality of mixed-orientation marriages baffle many of us – sometimes including those who experience them. Simplistic responses cannot suffice. In this complex kaleidoscope of human identity, longing, fulfillment, intimacy, fidelity, and love, mixed-orientation marriages invite us to a deeper humility. I pray they will also invite us to a deeper honesty. These stories, each one unique in its experiential facets, need to be heard with a generous commitment to listen and enter in. As friends and supportive community, let us not shy away from the tension, let us resist offering solutions, let us rejoice and grieve and hope and accept the reality for what it is. In so doing, let us be a conduit of grace ready to learn and to grow in being the Body of Christ together.
-WG
I'm sure some folks will appreciate your analysis, Wendy. However, it seems to me, as one married for 30 years, that no marriage escapes the risk of sexual temptation on the part of either spouse, husband or wife. It's an age-old problem that by far predates "mixed orientation" marriage bed problems.
ReplyDeleteOur marriage survived my sexual identity crisis and acting out unfaithfully on those urges 20 years ago. It also survived my battle with major depression before that. And several financial crises. And other serious stuff I won't go into.
Sexual intimacy is not the top maker or breaker of marriages. Committed love between a man and a woman is a mysterious and wonderful thing. When that marriage is a triune union, with God at the center, it can overcome things believed to be insurmountable. If it is merely a worldly love, patterned only after what we can sense and see in other humans, it is certainly defying the odds if it succeeds.
Who cares if it is a "mixed orientation" marriage? That's not what God would call it. Is that somehow worse than a marriage of two wildly different, yet marvelously complementary sexes, each spouse being straight but born of original sin? How, praytell?
Sin is a great, big, ugly bag. It touches everything about us. Thankfully, God is far bigger.
Hi Debbie,
ReplyDeleteMy post isn't about the question of sexual temptation. As I often reiterate in my writings on this blog, I see sexuality as much more comprehensive than a reductionistic understanding of genitalized sex.
I confess, I tire of the Christian triumphalism that claims marital happiness is a guarantee if spouses have enough faith. While I prioritize fidelity to covenant, I know deeply faithful Christians who have traversed the wilderness of divorce and I know that God's grace has been with them.
I am truly glad that you have a story of perseverance and God's grace in your marriage. We need to be ever mindful that we cannot project our experience on anyone else's. There are many distinct reasons for the experience of growth and joy in marriage. There are also many distinct reasons for the experience of disappointment and frustration in marriage. In the context of community, we need to learn to listen carefully, support prayerfully, and entrust one another to the leading and care of the Spirit.
I don't know what to think. I hope someday to be married, but I am not sure exactly why. I guess I just want to be like everybody else.
ReplyDeleteThe thing is that (and I don't know if I can say this) honesty seems to be in short supply surrounding these issues. I long for stories like you have posted- not cheer leading about "how much I have changed" which seem to dominate the mixed-orientation marriage landscape. It's as if we have two sides each with their own vested story:
1. Those in these types of marriages seem to not want to dwell on or even highlight the issues involved in such marriages; especially if they have a strong traditional sense of faith.
On "gay issues" they often tend to appropriate and employ some of the more unfortunate attitudes of their straight counterparts with much gusto. Sometimes I wonder if they are trying to curry favor with their straight counterparts as much as possible in a effort to be more accepted and feel more "normal".
If they have a vested interest in "making things work", how much can I trust their testimonies?
2. Those who have left seem more interested in defending and legitimizing their new path.
I hear a lot of language that sounds rehearsed on both sides and most times I just begin to zone out.
My question, can anyone just talk and share honestly without a need to "defend" themselves?
And just as an aside, I find that many straight people have a lot of confusion when it comes to sexuality; particularly about the meaning of the words: "temptation" and "lust".
ReplyDeleteIt is God who makes things work. Without Him we really can do nothing.
ReplyDeleteI think contentment is a desireable goal, one not easily obtained. Many single people have times when they wish they were married and many married people have times when they wish they were single, regardless of their 'orientations'. Sadly in a fallen world there is no greener grass on the other side of the fence. Only in Christ is there peace.
In the end I am left with the choice of trusting God who lets things be as they are, or not trusting Him. I find it more comforting to trust. It feels 'irresponsible' but then if God is to get the glory for being responsible instead of me getting the glory for being responsible, then so be it.
Wendy: wow, this is probably the best post I've seen yet on Mixed Orientation marriages. It stirs up a lot of things that I'd like to respond to but don't have the time or space to do just now, but I hope I can soon. For now I'll just say that as the "mainly gay" spouse in a "mixed orientation" marriage I appreciate the way you articulated the many complexities that my wife and I often face.
ReplyDeleteAndy: if you want to talk to a gue in a mixed orientation marriage who is caught in the tension of fully integrating my faith and sexuality while trying to remain faithful to God, my wife, our marriage, and myself...Id be happy to chat :) jpd7906@gmail.com
Wendy,
ReplyDeleteThank you for a well written article. I think it is really inappropriate for those of us who are straight to put undue burdens on folks who are in mixed orientation marriages when .. as we look at the church world around us .. we see many couples (straight) who have divorced and even remarried. .. And we support them through this. So why put undue burdens on folks whose shoes we have not walked in ? .. On the other hand there are those in mixed oreintation marriages who have persevered through the difficulties choose to remain together. My question is: Do you know of any helpful resources for folks who are in mixed orientation marriages... resources that directly address some of the unique challenges these folks may have?
Thanks,
Dave
Wendy, I know your post is about more than sexual temptation. That's why I laid out just a partial list of other factors that weighed heavily against our marriage (the second for both of us, by the way — we know divorce) succeeding. We could have referred to our marriage as a mixed-orientation one at one point, I suppose. Sexual wanderlust (not tension in trying to "reconcile" my faith and my sexuality) was what nearly killed it.
ReplyDeleteYou said, "I tire of the Christian triumphalism that claims marital happiness is a guarantee if spouses have enough faith." So do we all, and that attitude applies to more than marriage. Jesus himself never promised us happiness. John 16:33 says just the opposite. His half-brother James taught us we can know deep joy in the midst of deep pain. Cool, ain't it? Moreover, it is not more faith that married couples need. It is love, perseverance and, above all, realizing that Christ is the covenantal center of the marriage.
"The world" (as in, "Take courage; I have overcome the ...") takes in a lot, doesn't it? So-called mixed orientation (you can only mean that in a sexual sense, so temptation in that area is a large piece of it) marriages are dealing with some of the same obstacles all marriages face. You just dress it up differently.
What greater mystery can there be than a one-flesh union between a man and a woman that contributes to the spiritual and emotional growth of both spouses? God is free to use every obstacle possible as a testing vehicle for that growth — sexual identity (or orientation, if you prefer) issues, emotional baggage from the past, outside forces, loss and heartache. You name it. Life is full of issues.
I'd just like to add that I don't in any way wish to demean the heart-wrenching process that accompanies the kind of ruminating you have done here, Wendy. I get it. I do.
ReplyDeleteI could not have anticipated the extent to which the demon of depression would rear its ugly head in our marriage. And that demon pretty much kept the other one at bay for the first 10 years of our marriage. I wasn't honest about my earlier same-sex attraction struggles with my husband. Again, when I fell in love with him, I believed I had grown beyond that "problem." I thought it best left unspoken. But the enemy of my soul knew it was still an Achilles heel for me.
Seems to me many of those who choose to marry, either disclosing their struggles (past or present) or not to their spouses, have honestly placed their hopes in Christ and in the future. We just don't have crystal balls. I think some of the bravest, most loving people I know of are those who, learning of this issue, still choose to go the distance with a spouse. That's my husband, God bless him. Where children are involved (we had two young children when my crisis hit), the commitment takes on a heightened importance.
Because so many idealize sexual fulfillment (who really knows how good good can be?), the longing for that ethereal ideal can supersede the happiness they could otherwise be perfectly content with. How many "mixed-orientation" marriages just need time to grow? Other married couples pack it in too easily, as well. Marriage is a grand adventure. Well worth it, I'd say.
When God is in the equation, there is no way to foresee the best that could be waiting still. He has done amazing things in our marriage. And He has done incredible healing in me sexually and emotionally. Good is very good. :)
I am not married, but is it really just about sexual fulfillment or the search for it?
ReplyDeleteI believe that God's original design called for a complex attraction between men and women that is not just sexual in nature.
As far as this attraction is "inverted" in gays/ homosexuals etc., then their attractions should be far more than just "sexual" "temptations".
I think this is very separate and apart from sexual addiction, and I think this must be made clear in any discussion.
I have no doubt that God saved your marriage, but I would like a better idea of your story, which I have not been able to find on your site.
I also think that any discussion of "healing" and "change" should be defined carefully. I am weary for almost seventeen years now of all the religio-jargon surrounding this issue that I am supposed to accept by faith.
When you say you have been "healed" or are "improving" or that your life is "better", what do you mean?
What is different now than before beyond your perspective?
Going on 20 years in my mixed orientation marriage. Still attracted to men, but still love my wife deeply. I appreciate the discussion.
ReplyDeleteAndy, are your questions for me? I presume so, since your comment followed mine.
ReplyDeleteMy testimony is on my website, but that is constrained by space and what the average person would be likely to read while online. Not sure what you want to see in it that is not there.
I can respond to your specific questions here, if Wendy will permit it. This discussion is certainly not about me. I appreciate the other insights shared here.
You asked, "When you say you have been 'healed' or are 'improving' or that your life is 'better', what do you mean? What is different now than before (not quite sure how you meant the last three words)?”
When I say I have experienced healing, I mean brought by the grace of God to a place of wholeness in all that I am — in the physical, emotional and spiritual spheres of my life. I experienced a decade of severe, intermittent depression. Major Depressive Disorder is an infirmity, or an affliction, if you prefer that term. There were a number of reasons for it. Long story. It was life-threatening at its worst. I wasn't suicidal, I was wasting. I wanted to die, but my faith, shrunken as it was, would not permit me to take my own life.
I thought I knew Christ back then, but he was not fully formed in me. I'd made some serious mistakes in my life, and that was when "the sin that dare not speak its name" was still only in my thought life. It wasn't just temptation. It was sinful, covetous thinking. Through godly counseling with my pastor and his wife, the committed love of my husband, a wonderful doctor and a divine touch from God that drew it all together (the healing part), my life turned around and I found stability. Thus (20 years ago) began my post-depression era, which continues today. I didn’t realize how vulnerable I still was, however.
It was after night became day for me that Satan came calling with a vicious attack that shook me to my core. I became overwhelmingly selfish, feeling entitled to know my "other self." The very idea was intoxicating to me, to say nothing of its physical consummation. I caved. And at my lowest point in that crisis, God showed up again with more healing grace, and again, godly people to walk it out with me. Another journey to know Christ more fully and to see my identity in his commenced. And here I am, on a higher plane again. Healed, albeit with scars, walking sometimes with a limp. A new woman. No longer held captive or defined by my former sins, and capable of fully loving my husband and being fully loved by him in a covenant marriage with Christ at the center.
Yes, certainly Mrs. Thurman.
ReplyDeleteSo were you healed from depression
and other emotional issues (and spiritual issues like selfishness etc.)?
Or were you healed from your same-sex attractions?
I know you know that the language of "healing" has been far too loose in the gay/ex-gay space (or whatever is a suitable term for it); so I was wondering if you could pin down exactly what changes took place in your life.
I try to be very descriptive and to avoid what I call "Christian-speak".
I did find your testimony on the third try and I did read it by the way. I had thought there might be a direct link on the front page.
The reason this is important to me is because much of this "loose talk" (to paraphrase a President) was very confusing to me growing up as a young boy.
I knew very little about anything. I was never abused or an "experimenter". I was just alone with my thoughts and I knew I hated myself. Very early I determined that "standard" ex-gay/healing testimonies were of no use to me.
I did not have an "identity problem" since I did not label myself as anything.
I also could not relate to the standard tales of rescue from wild living--since I had lived no wild life.
And yet, I was very clearly attracted to other boys.
So I was not sure what "healing" or "leaving the lifestyle" meant since I had never entered it (whatever that is)in the first place.
What good were such testimonies to me?
All I wanted was to be just like everybody else. Was it going to happen?
This is why I always ask for clarification.
My narrow point is this:
SSA presents itself first--far and apart from "identity" or "lifestyle". For me it was around age 11. I had no "lifestyle" or any "identity" surrounding this thing. People who are where I was at the time consider "healing" to mean "heterosexuality" (dictionary meaning).
And I was hoping that this could go away as soon as possible so I could be like other guys.
So when you talk about "healing", people who are looking for hope (particularly those who were like me--young and in a very hostile society)get very different ideas from what you are trying to convey.
Andy, the link to my testimony is on the front page of my site — pull-down menu under "About."
ReplyDeleteI also began agonizing over who I was and how I was feeling at age 11. I had accepted Christ the year before, so I have no doubt that began to factor into guilt at the time of my sexual awakening. I was also molested at 8, and that was a factor in my confusion.
The term healing is probably more meaningful to me because of my prolonged depression battle. I felt broken from head to toe. That decade of suffering was the only time up to that point that I had not been plagued with SSA. Depression overtook everything.
I understand how the concept of healing from one's SSA is not a comforting or meaningful one for you or others who still struggle, and perhaps always will. There is also the reality that some "ex-gay" testimonies in the past were too skewed toward representing a full change in attractions. They fed off each other, I think. And seeing that some have been more honest about what the spiritual transformation process actually looks like for them may appear like a kind of betrayal for folks like you.
For me, the change was a complete one. No more SSA. I know others, godly men and women, younger and older, who cannot say that and probably never will. I also know godly men and women who realize they remain predisposed to depression in their lives, despite doing everything possible in the human realm and praying fervently for God to heal them. And these are some of the most amazing people I know — choosing to trust God in spite of their affliction. Others give in to whatever they struggle with, as the pain is too great for them to bear.
I am nothing extra-special. I am just the recipient of God's amazing grace, according to His will. It is so overwhelming to me that I cannot fail to see I was put here to do something with that, to bring glory to Him and to give hope — not false hope but real hope — to others.
Thanks for asking me to clarify. Hope this helps.
Thanks everyone for a very robust discussion!
ReplyDeleteAt the end of the day, I write from the perspective of someone who is mainly straight. So I am cautious about asserting too strongly my sense of the experience of a same-sex oriented spouse in a mixed orientation marriage.
However, after many years and many conversations with many different people living in this reality, it seems to me that the healthiest way to navigate the conversation about this matter is to honestly acknowledge the integrative reality that same-sex orientation impacts our personhood in a much more comprehensive manner than simply sexual temptation or desire for sexual fulfillment. Andy - you've hit on some helpful things related to this in your comment.
It seems to me that part of the agonized tension in some mixed orientation marriages is the sense that on one hand there is a depth of love and care for one's spouse and on the other this intrinsic sense that the deepest level of soul mate would be someone of the same gender. This is so agonizing because the same-sex oriented spouse often deeply wishes they could experience that level of soulmate connection with the spouse that they love deeply, don't want to hurt, and long for them to also be loved as deeply as they themselves want to be loved.
I'm not saying this describes all mixed orientation marriages. But I know that it describes some.
In this place it isn't about blame - it is no one's fault. And the agonizing question is, "Do we live out our covenant of marriage knowing that there are limitations that neither of us chose and that neither of us can fix - but trusting that God's grace is sufficient..... or do we release one another, because we love each other, so that we can both experience a deeper love?"
For those who can't enter in to that honesty, the answer might seem simple. "Marriage is never perfect, it is always full of compromises, suck it up, be grateful for what you have and count your blessings" ... and there is some truth in that (even though the attitude kinda stinks).
A haunting question can be, however, "are we just settling - when we could live more fully into our humanity?" .... and while that might sound self-absorbed, there can be the sense that when we live our fullest life, our most vibrant expression of our humanness - that is our deepest expression of worship to our Creator.
I am not trying to imply one answer or the other - I am only trying to give voice to the agonized tensions that I know people wrestle, pray, weep and fast about. This isn't the trivial stuff of "you don't make me happy - I'm outta here". These are the deep questions of how do we love one another well? Is staying, and making the best accommodations we can, the most loving thing? Or is releasing one another the most loving thing?
And in the mess and tension of these questions are the inevitable immaturities and weaknesses of our flesh that need to grow up and be disciplined ... So it can be excruciatingly difficult.
And for those who know a couple in this kind of turmoil - please resist trying to give them the answer - and simply be present with them, extending grace, patient listening, encouragement to grow, to draw near to God, to keep praying, to not make hasty decisions, to be still before the Lord. In that process, we can trust that all of us will have the opportunity to grow in dependence on God and in trusting the leading of the Holy Spirit.
I appreciate this article very much.
ReplyDeleteDo you have any examples of vows that release partners from a the marriage, in particular in the context of mixed orientation? Or any websites or other sources you might recommend?