I’ve just spent some time reading through a number of
different blogs and, as I often do, find myself ruminating on the mission,vision and context in which New Direction seeks to serve.
On
one end, Alan Chambers gives an interview for the Atlantic in which he shares
his vision for a discipleship-focused ministry for same-sex attracted people
who believe that Scripture directs them to refrain from entering a committed
same-sex relationship. On the other end,
John Shore chews up and spits out the idea of bridge-building and middle
ground and unequivocally calls for all Christians to support gay marriage.
Both of these men are my brothers in Christ. Both believe they are following the leading
of Christ. And the words and actions of
both affect my sisters and brothers who are LGBT.
I am keenly aware, as I ponder not only their thoughts, but
the comments generated by these posts, that I do so as a person of majority
privilege. As a straight ally, I cannot
fully enter in to the experience of needing to fight for the opportunity to
enter a loving, committed relationship to launch building a family of my
own. I can’t fully enter the experience
of needing to deconstruct things I was told and taught, often under the
assumption of the authority of God, in order to simply believe that I could be
loved by Jesus and be welcomed to share in the inheritance of life forever in
his presence. I can’t imagine the weight
of feeling like people in my family and church believe I’m going to hell simply
for who I am.
Sure, I have had to face a lot of fear and insecurity,
self-loathing, and shame in my Christian journey. And yes, I have navigated the threatening terrain
of my own cognitive dissonance and the need to risk rethinking and reassessing
things I’d been taught to believe. I’ve
experienced some rejection and judgment along the way. But, I know that I did all of these things as
someone who still enjoyed many of the benefits of majority status.
In my role as leader of New Direction, I try to be
especially sensitive to the limitations of my capacity to speak into these
matters – while at the same time, trying to be faithful to do what I can to
help the Christian community nurture safe spaces that are radically hospitable.
Because we work across a broad spectrum of the Christian
community, we have refrained from aligning ourselves with a particular
theological position on the question of gay marriage for Christians. This is a change from our earlier history
when we were clearly positioned with the belief that sexual intimacy was to be
reserved for the marriage of one man and one woman. The reason for this change was our desire to
focus on nurturing environments that gave people the room they needed to
process these complex and threatening matters.
We wanted to help people think through how they believe what they
believe, why they believe what they believe, and to more deeply consider the
impact of their beliefs on others. We
wanted to be with people in the messy, chaotic process of opening heart and
mind to the possibility that they could be wrong – and to seek with a willing
and humble heart for what God might be saying to them on these matters as they
risk prayerfully thinking and discerning in light of the reality of gay
Christians in the church. As people do
this, some will reaffirm the belief that for Christians, sexual intimacy is to
be experienced only in heterosexual marriage.
Others may move towards a belief that God’s grace invites same-sex
oriented persons to experience love, intimacy, companionship and family in a
committed gay marriage. We are not
trying to determine that outcome for people, but to invite them to consider
their motivations, their attitudes, their approach, and the implications of
their beliefs on others. We want to
encourage people to wrestle with God, to dig deeply into the Scriptures, to
stretch their experience of faith in the lives of gay people, to pray, and
wait, and listen.
When the people of God apply themselves to do these things, my
hope is that the culture of the church will shift to a more loving, relational,
and just response to LGBT people. Our
confidence is that the Holy Spirit can be trusted to lead people into
truth. Why that truth seems to look
differently for different people is something I’d really like to ask the
Trinity when I see them face-to-face.
What I think I’ll encounter is a generous spaciousness within God that
blows my mind and causes me to fall on my face in the realization that on this
earth I never even began to grasp the immensity of his grace. Until that time,
I’ll work towards sharing a vision of generous spaciousness that makes room for
all people, with all of our different ways of engaging Scripture, different
experiences, different theological assumptions, different levels of certainty,
and different understandings of how exactly God is at work in our broken world.
In the meantime, I will focus on
becoming a more loving person as I encounter all kind of different people.
These are some things I know for sure:
- For better or for worse, there are a lot of different perspectives held by Christians on the question of gay marriage – both civil or within the church. We can get mad or sad or outrageously impatient about this, but none of that will change this reality. It is what it is.
- This range of perspective is motivated by many different factors – including the good, the bad and the ugly in terms of Biblical interpretation, logic, attitude and posture. Declarations of the perfect interpretation, logic, attitude and posture on this matter may likely be perceived as arrogant, insufficient, and flat-out wrong by those who disagree. Such declarations, no matter how passionately articulated, usually aren’t the most effective way to change people’s hearts and minds. That’s just the way it is.
- Humbly acknowledging these differences is the first step towards nurturing a space where people can actually listen to what each other thinks and believes. Assuming what another person believes or feels usually isn’t very helpful. Respectful, honest dialogue, particularly with people for whom a topic is personally impactful, is a much more effective way to work towards shared values than demanding change is.
- Gay Christians don’t all agree on how to understand God’s direction or how to interpret Scripture on the matter of gay marriage. There are incredible examples, like my friends Justin Lee and Ron Belgau, who model respectful friendship despite disagreements without the patronizing assumption of internalized homophobia, disregard for justice, or misguided agendas.
- A matter as complex as the intersection of faith and sexuality is difficult and threatening for most people to process. This means the process usually isn’t quick, pain-free, or neat and tidy. People need space to face their fears, privilege, and assumptions in a non-anxious context.
- People who experience same-sex attraction need space to wrestle with how they will integrate their faith and their sexuality. They need time to consider multiple perspectives, clarify their beliefs and values, and then build a network of supportive relationships that will encourage them to live in alignment with their convictions.
- For the foreseeable future, there will be diversity on the matter of gay marriage in the Christian community. This diversity needs to be stewarded in a way that takes the public witness of the church into careful consideration. The degree to which we will be able to experience unity in this diversity has a direct impact on how the world perceives the church.
- Unity in diversity is sustained by key common ground affirmations that include: affirmation of the dignity and value of all human beings; affirmation that salvation is a gift of God given through faith in Jesus Christ and not by our attempts to be holy; affirmation that only God knows the status of a person’s relationship with him; affirmation that we are called to nurture environments where all people can flourish; affirmation that we are to emulate God’s unconditional love – including to people we disagree with.
Generous spaciousness acknowledges the reality that in the
church today there are people who love Jesus deeply and honour the authority of
the Scriptures as God’s revelation to us but who none-the-less come to
differing conclusions on the question of gay marriage for Christians. Paul dealt with matters that Jewish and
Gentile believers disagreed with one another about in both the Corinthian and
Roman churches. His focus was on
cultivating relationships saying, “Welcome with open arms fellow believers who don't see things
the way you do. And don't jump all over them every time they do or say
something you don't agree with—even when it seems that they are strong on
opinions but weak in the faith department. Remember, they have their own
history to deal with. Treat them gently……So let's agree to use all our energy
in getting along with each other. Help others with encouraging words; don't
drag them down by finding fault…….Cultivate your own relationship with God, but
don't impose it on others. You're fortunate if your behavior and your belief
are coherent. But if you're not sure, if you notice that you are acting in ways
inconsistent with what you believe—some days trying to impose your opinions on
others, other days just trying to please them—then you know that you're out of
line. If the way you live isn't consistent with what you believe, then it's
wrong.”
-WG
-WG
To me, the blog title begs a different question: is generous spaciousness even a bridge? I don't think so, at least not for the most part. It's a place, a posture, not a path or route.
ReplyDeleteWhen I look at ND's mission (Nurturing safe and spacious places for those outside the heterosexual main-stream to explore and grow in faith in Jesus Christ) it makes me think of stations along the underground railroad, or the hiding places which sheltered Jewish people in Nazi Germany. Not that it's the same thing, but that's what I am reminded of rather than bridges.
The vision (To see sexual minorities encounter and grow in Christ-centered discipleship marked by radical trust, robust hope and fearless love) doesn't make me think of bridge building either. (I do realize that bridge-building of some sort might be done at times as part of carrying out the vision...)
The question that I have relates more to this:
Sometimes I think to myself, "I don't care what the other person believes about same-sex relationships (et al.); what matters is how they treat other people." And then I think, "that might go a long way to improving regular life for lgbt people (re: bullying, discrimination in employment, etc.) but when it comes down to it, someone who does not believe in equality and full inclusion and such still ends up being anti-gay and will at least in certain areas be treating lgbt people as less than straight people.
So can one encourage generous spaces in a conservative church? Is this worth spending time and energy on, or is it a 'bridge to nowhere?' or 'throwing money to the wind?' Is it good to work for making spaces more generous than they were before, even if they do not become as generous as one might like?
Just some thoughts and questions ....
Thanks for your thoughts and questions Rob. I guess I was thinking of John Shore's assertion that anything less than clearly pushing for and promoting that people move to the position of affirming gay marriage is a bridge to nowhere. Generous spaciousness does not push or promote in that sense .... so does that mean that generous spaciousness is really just a slick cover-up that justifies anti-gay behaviour and attitudes? Or is it important to work with people and spaces where they are and at least seek to help them be more open and more generous? You ask these same questions.
ReplyDeleteFrom my perspective, there are LGBT people who are in process themselves. They may not be able to feel safe connecting with an overtly affirming church or ministry .... and this may indeed be due to their own internalized homophobia, fear and uncertainty. But, on the other hand, they may be someone who has a very good level of self-acceptance who has wrestled and studied and comes to the clear minded conclusion that Scripture precludes even committed same-sex unions.
So you're right - generous spaciousness isn't primarily about bridges - but it may bridge people with different perspectives to one another on the basis of discovering shared common ground values. Given what I read in Scripture about the Body of Christ and the call to unity (which will always be in tension with our diversity) .... I do think that Generous Spaciousness is inherently spiritually formational because it stretches us to extend respect and dignity in a humble spirit to those with whom we differ. It seems to me that Generous Spaciousness inherently calls us to a higher level of maturity and growth in the fruits of the Spirit.
But I recognize that this may be insufficient for those who see affirmation of gay marriage as the only way to experience justice for LGBT people. The challenge for me is that there seems to be great potential for pastoral violence in demanding that people accept a particular theological position that for them seems at odds with their reading of Scripture.
No, in my case it IS an actual bridge.
ReplyDeleteBefore finding this blog I spent some time at another "bridging" forum that failed miserably for me. Respect was talked about, but precious little room was given for actual listening. I left, extremely hurt and angry, because my point of view and experience had been addressed just one time too many with condescending, patronizing, "I'll show you the error of your ways" christo-centric arrogance.
Admittedly, that site was the wrong one for me anyway, as I originally joined it thinking it might be a venue to work out, in online relationships at least, my anger at the church for its response to me when I came out, maybe to put all that distress to rest. It was not. What I found instead was an expectation that I would tolerate and respect views that were land-mine sized triggers... and as horrific to me (or worse) than the rhetoric I was subjected to when I first came out.
I frequently say that I don't care what someone else believes, I only care about how they treat me.
That's not entirely true.
I care if someone's belief causes them to interfere with my civil rights and my ability to define, provide for and defend my family, the same as everyone else's.
I care if someone's belief causes them to treat me as less than, broken, disturbed, perverted, evil.
I care if someone's belief causes them to punish me personally for being who I am and loving who I love.
It is political. It is personal. There are some bridges that I am too PTSD to attempt. I might feel compassion in the abstract for Alan Chambers and people like him, but I cannot get past the damage he/they have done/continue to do. There is not likely to be any bridge between him/them and me anytime soon.
In short, where Christianity is concerned, the well of my patience is dry, dry, dry. I'm tired of the bs, the double-speak, the "we love you" words with the "we hate you" actions (coupled with the shock of "but we SAID we love you, why are you calling us haters?").
Endemic to the whole convoluted mess is, IMHO, one basic underlying factor:
A refusal to listen.
However.
This space is different. Generous spaciousness IS different. By my own confession above, I am not capable of it; but I deeply appreciate that this is what you do here. Here, I have never felt attacked. Here, I have never felt devalued. Here, I feel respected. Here, my opinion is actually sought out. Here, my journey is given recognition and it's due. Here, I am much more capable of listening because I am being heard. Here, no one is interpreting my experience for me or claiming to know my mind better than I do.
Wendy, if that's not bridge-building, then I don't know what is.
Thanks for your reply. From reading some of his posts, I expect John Shore knows that while one can push through the legalization of gay marriage, one can't legislate love and respect. And that seems to be a key part of generous spaciousness -- interacting with respect and humility and love for the other person above my own ideas.
ReplyDeleteWhile ND has a specific focus which I really appreciate, generous spaciousness is endearing to me overall and I so see how much of life would benefit from it.
I can also see its value in helping parishioners with a variety of beliefs, find common ground (and in that sense bridging them) as they work together in making their church more welcoming to all who come to it. In the lgbt realm, perhaps that kind of generous spaciousness is a seed which will (hopefully) grow and eventually blossom into a fuller version of generous spaciousness. In this case it is not a bridge to nowhere either, but a starting point.
And in answer to the last question I asked in my previous post, I'd say yes, it is good to work for making spaces more generous than they were before.... it is movement in the right direction, which is important because people are in process and often do not make huge jumps at a time.
Wendy what I find interesting is how most people have no idea how lonely this road can be. Even I forget when I allow the busyness of life to take me away. The last couple of days however have been a reminder and has been very lonely for me. I have been away from my regular routine. I'm away for some military training in a different state and city and have been trying to find other people who share my faith, struggles, and experiences. I have been trying to connect with so-called "gay-affirming" churches for encouragement and strength. However, so far all I've been rewarded with are unanswered messages to their churches. it's so frustrating because I feel like I'm repeating this whole experience with coming out. When I came out there were all these Christian gay organizations who promised to help be there with you for encouragement. They even offered to have someone contact you to encourage and pray for you through that period. Nothing happened. It's been almost a year since I came out and I still haven't heard from one christian gay organization, not even gaychristian.net. I'm starting to wonder if I made the wrong choice in living "authentically". It's not that I think those orgs in themselves have some power but being a part of the community helps you feel like you're not loosing you're mind. Right now in my dorm room the only options left to me are to find a church service where I may be told that I have to "struggle against the spirit of homosexuality" as my mother says or some website offering a quick "hook-up". God knows that's not what I want but the idea of being in contact with someone who understands is very appealing. Anyways sorry to upchuck that all over you! I dont want to feel sorry for myself but I'm tired of feeling alone.
ReplyDeleteWendy, once again I'm moved to tears as I read your post and responses. The grace and humility you express resonate with my understanding of who Christ is and how he in affect calls each and every believer to embody. This generous spaciousness that you rotfl of is in essence a call to be Christlike in our reception and response to anyone and everyone with whom we come in contact. Thank you for harkening us back to humility and grace for one another.
ReplyDeleteBlessings to you in your continued endeavors.
-Dr. Trista Carr
Wendy: Thanks for this wonderful and thoughtful post. I think that Brian already said a lot if not most of anything that's on my mind. For me, I think the big issue is that I'm strongly of the opinion that except in cases where it becomes a matter of justice (e.g. protecting people walking down the street from one who sees no problem with assaulting people on the street and taking their money), making moral choices is a personal matter and should be treated as such. This is where the old cliche really does fit: "If you don't believe same sex marriage are okay, then don't get married to someone of the same sex." However, I think to actively interfere with people who don't feel the same way and their ability to get married to someone of the same sex is a matter of injustice.
ReplyDeleteOn the topic of bridge-building and generous spaciousness, I will note that not all people who seek out a middle ground are of equal quality in my mind. I think there's a difference between "here's where I am right now -- and that may change -- but I'm willing to allow others to come to different conclusions without reservation" and "well, I have a clear idea of what's right, and I feel that's where you should be, but I'll avoid being up front about it." While I've always felt you fell into the first sort, I feel that some "bridge-builders" and "middle grounders" do fall into the second category. In my opinion, they're engaging in a sort of obfuscation or even duplicity that is actually counter to the principles of building bridges and cultivating generous spaciousness.
Anon: I feel for you and I hope that you find people of your own faith to connect with and form the kind of support and validation you need at this time. There truly are some great Christians out there.
Brian - your comment made me cry and I am so glad that you have found this to be a gracious space. As I always, I so value learning from your journey - it is a story I wish the whole church would stop and really listen to.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous - I can hear the pain in your experience of aloneness. My favorite definition of sexuality is, "Our drive to overcome our aloneness". When our sexuality puts us on the margins - this amplifies that intrinsic loneliness - which grieves our soul. That is why I am so committed to nurturing generous spaciousness in our communities of faith. We need to connect with one another deeply - even while giving each other space to figure out the contours of our journey. As someone who has struggled deeply with aloneness, I want to gently share that I have discovered that my aloneness was energized by the ways that I did not love or have confidence in myself. I don't want to project that on you - but I would simply want to encourage you to be intentional about celebrating, within yourself, the incredible person that you are. Reflect on the perseverance, tenacity, the kindness, the appreciation of beauty, the hard working, the giving etc. that is within yourself that you can rightfully be proud of. Celebrate you, be gentle and kind to yourself. Befriend yourself. I have found these things to be critical at some of my loneliest times.
Jarred - I think your insights are very important and consistent with what I hear from a lot of LGBT folks who feel suspicious of "bridge-builders". There is a difference, to be sure, between focusing on nurturing space that honours the autonomy of the individual to own their own beliefs and values and the implications for their journey - and the attempt to meet in the middle in order to bring someone to a particular "side". When we trust the autonomy of another - we are letting go of control, we are extending honour and respect to another (while recognizing that as we do this, we are in turn honouring our own humanity as well since we are all interconnected). It is our fear and anxiety that so often seeks to control the outcomes for others .... when we can face those fears and release them, then we can be free to love generously and invite people into a spacious place where we can truly get to know and enjoy them for who they are.
I love your inclusive, patient attitude. You are a gem! :)
ReplyDeleteThanks Trista and Brandon - appreciate your encouragement.
ReplyDelete"Is generous spaciousness just a bridge to nowhere?"
ReplyDeleteJohn Shore's argument is a powerful one. Generous spaciousness validates and enables homophobia simply by giving it space.
All you need to do to see how dangerous this can be is to imagine for a moment generous spaciousness accorded to some other controversial belief or topic. Racism, let's say.
Imagine a safe place where racists can discuss their faith and draw closer to Christ without fearing they'll be attacked for their belief that other races are inferior.
Based on your refusal to call those who object to gay sex and marriage homophobic because all they're doing is upholding scripture (e.g. Leviticus 18:22), you'd also have to object to calling someone who believes in enslavement for Africans a racist, right? I mean, if Leviticus 18:22 is valid, why not Genesis 9:25?
So what would you be, then? An enabler and shelterer of racists providing them with support, credibility and a safe space from which to promote their beliefs?
In that case, I wonder how Africans would view you.
As a gay man, ND looks to me very much like a nest of homophobes masquerading as a support system for LGBT Christians. If you give succour to those who believe gay sex and marriage to be sinful then you're helping to perpetuate and promote their beliefs, which means you're actively working against the LGBT community.
As such I think your stance isn't so much a bridge to nowhere as it is an enemy bridgehead behind our lines.
Steven - it sounds like you feel that anyone who views same-sex sexual behaviour as sinful to be homophobic. Would you then consider an out gay Christian who is committed to be celibate on the basis of their interpretation of Scripture to be homophobic?
ReplyDeleteThere are a lot of people in the Christian community who believe that women should be submissive in all things to men and should not speak or teach in the church. That can feel oppressive to me as a woman in ministry leadership. But I'm not sure that my insistence that they are all misogynists is fair or helpful.
And my best reading of Scripture calls me to extend grace to them and to be willing to engage in dialogue with them - even though I vehemently disagree with their conclusions.
Martin Luther King Jr. in his fight against racism shamed his oppressors with his love for them. It was this love that eventually brought the change that was absolutely needed. Generous spaciousness is not intended to be a safe haven for oppression - but to be a safe place where we can all learn from one another how to dismantle and lay down our propensity to violence and oppression. We are only truly free if our neighbours are free. And when ideology is coerced, no one is free.
But freedom means that we allow people time to be confronted by the love of their enemies to the point that it transforms them. The way of violence seems faster and more effective .... but history shows that violence only begets violence. The mysterious power of God is that he chose the power of powerlessness to redeem the world. Generous spaciousness seeks to follow in that way.
This is far and away the biggest challenge to my faith in God. I cannot imagine I would be alive today without Him helping me but many times I want to ask Him if He honestly thinks He made the right decisions.
ReplyDelete1. If He hates homosexuality so much, why does He allow it in the first place?
2. When twelve year old boys are praying to be straight for years, often with fear and trembling, exactly what does God do at that moment?
I genuinely believed that somehow God ignored that part of my prayers completely.
Sometimes I was tempted to think that God wanted me to suffer in this way. Sometimes when I hear all manner of ignorance and abuse I am tempted to think that God wants things to be that way.
After all, He did make sure that His word contained multiple negative references to homosexuality. The Bible is curt and direct on this issue and in my opinion never even looks back at the afflicted souls lying by the wayside.
Furthermore, everyone that does these hurtful things to gay and lesbians has a strong sense that they are doing God's will.
I have felt pangs of guilt merely sympathizing with gays and lesbians. On the other hand, I have never had any such sense that God was displeased with homophobia.
Maybe in theory; but I must confess it feels quite normal to me. It's so expected here, it feels "proper".
Most of the people I live with and many I utterly admire (in my country) are so far removed from any kind of understanding of the issues surrounding homosexuality that I don't even try. I cannot imagine a better future and I have no sense that God really thinks about a better future for gays and lesbians. Sorry to be so pessimistic. Sorry for rambling.
"After all, He did make sure that His word contained multiple negative references to homosexuality. The Bible is curt and direct on this issue and in my opinion never even looks back at the afflicted souls lying by the wayside. Furthermore, everyone that does these hurtful things to gay and lesbians has a strong sense that they are doing God's will."
ReplyDeleteAnd there in a nutshell you have the main reason why I am not a Christian, although on balance I think it think it increasingly likely that God exists and that Christ is His son. And that they're both homophobes.
It's clear to me that scripture condemns homosexual activity, therefore God's plan for me must be celibacy. But I can't be celibate. I've tried and it just doesn't work. I also can't regret the sex I have. It seems perfectly good, right and wonderful to me. Yet the Bible tells me it's evil, so if I see it as good then the only explanation that makes any sense is that I must be inherently evil.
Of course I could toddle off to a church and repent and beg for forgiveness, but I'd be lying if I did. I don't repent of the sex I've had. I don't think of it as bad or evil. I'm not sorry about it and to pretend I am would just be plain dishonest.
The only conclusion I can draw from this is that I am not saved. Paul states that the "sexually immoral" will not inherit the kingdom of heaven and as I can't be "sexually moral" (i.e. straight or celibate) then apparently I'm doomed. So it makes sense to enjoy life while I can. I have a partner whom I love very much and I intend to enjoy my life with him until the very last moment. And when death takes me then God may do what He will with me.
I guess that's a fatalistic attitude but really there's not much else I can do. I can't kill myself because that would just hasten the day of my eternal punishment. Ex-gay programs don't work so there's no point putting myself through that kind of torture. I could castrate myself, but that won't stop me being gay and desiring men. All it will do is make me incapable of having certain forms of sex. But why should I deprive myself of that when I'm already condemned for not loving God and seeing Him as an unreasonable, callous, homophobic tyrant?
Some in my position might consider Satanism a viable alternative. If you can't join Him, why not try to beat Him, eh? But if He really is omnipotent, what's the point? Open rebellion might mark my displeasure but the end result will be the same - I'll lose and be cast into the fire. So why waste time and energy resisting the inevitable?
And no, this is not a joke. I'm looking eternal damnation in the face and you know, being as there's nothing I can do about it, all it really does is make me want to enjoy life more. Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow I die...
That's the message of Christianity for the LGBT community. And you know, I think most of us actually understand this better than you might think.
"Steven - it sounds like you feel that anyone who views same-sex sexual behaviour as sinful to be homophobic."
ReplyDeleteThat's about right. God included. Anyone who believes I should abstain from sexual activity just because I'm gay is a homophobe.
"Would you then consider an out gay Christian who is committed to be celibate on the basis of their interpretation of Scripture to be homophobic?"
Absolutely. If they think that gay sex is intrinsically sinful then they're homophobic. Just like God. If you don't believe me, see Leviticus 18:22...
Of course if God is a homophobe then it must be right to be homophobic. So the fact that I find homophobia deeply offensive must be a symptom of my general depravity. I don't feel depraved, but if God is God and the Bible is His word then I must be.
There's nothing I can do about it of course, any more than I can change the color of my skin or my height. I'm gay and I have no gift for celibacy, so if gay sex is a sin then I was made to sin. Predestined, if you will.
I won't repent of the sex I've had and will have in the future. God may see it as a sin but I do not, so my repentance would be insincere and basically a lie. If I die unrepentant then I won't be saved, but as being saved would entail spending eternity with a homophobic God and his homophobic straight children, it would probably be worse than hell anyway.
Unless of course that's what hell really is. Could Lewis have got it right in "The Last Battle"? Will my version of hell entail me getting to heaven and finding I have to spend the whole of eternity with the same smug, insufferable straights who made my life such a misery here on earth?
Oh well, whatever the truth of the matter, I can't do anything about it. So I might as well just enjoy the party while it lasts. Que sera, sera.
Andy,
ReplyDeleteI can understand that you would feel very discouraged in your context. If most people around you are uncomfortable and negative about a reality that is a significant part of your personhood, that would be painful and frustrating and hard to have a sense of hope for acceptance and love in the future. It is not uncommon for human beings to project their negative experiences with other people on to God. We see this often when someone has had a harsh and unloving earthly father - they will tend to view God that way as well. To transform this kind of experience is not merely a matter of changing our thinking - in my experience, we can't think ourselves out of such negative expectations of God (our fear and shame are often too strong). But, I have seen people break free of such a fearful view of God through emotional and spiritual healing. By healing, I mean they are able to separate their experiences with people from their expectation of God, and in their spirit they are able to have a new sense of God's love for them.
See part 2 as well....
You asked two very important, and also common, questions:
ReplyDelete1. If He hates homosexuality so much, why does He allow it in the first place?
I would begin by saying that you may need to ask yourself how you know that God hates homosexuality. The Scriptural references are about specific behaviour - in two cases homosexual rape perpetrated by likely heterosexual men; in other cases there is some uncertainty as to the role of idol worship in the prohibition; in other cases there are questions about gender roles in cultural contexts; in others the list in which the same-sex sexual behaviour is included contain issues that essentially every human being experiences at some times (ie. greed and rage).
What we need to remember is that there is no where in Scripture that God gives any negative judgment on people who may experience same-sex attraction. What we know from Scripture is that God's heart is that none should perish - but that all would receive the free gift of grace offered through Jesus Christ.
On the question of why God allows this is the classic question of how a good and loving God could allow evil and suffering. My best understanding of how to respond to that is to try to grasp how significant (and perhaps dangerous) the gift of free will was that God gave to the human race. This is an incomplete answer for me - and so I certainly live with tension and uncertainty about this question. I do believe, however, that when people suffer and when people are impacted by evil in the world, that God weeps, is at work behind the scenes in ways we cannot yet see or understand, and that he holds the final trump card whereby he can make all things work together for good and that he will have the last word of victory when he claims his children for his own and they live eternally with him where there will be no suffering or pain.
2. When twelve year old boys are praying to be straight for years, often with fear and trembling, exactly what does God do at that moment?
I believe that God weeps to see young boys and girls unable to feel their value to him because of an experience that they did not choose and may not have wanted. I have seen amazing transformation happen in a person's life when they are able to know in the deepest place in their being that they are loved by God as they are. If God took away someone's same-sex attraction in an instant as an answer to prayer, that person might never know the depth of God's love that is unconditional. God doesn't need to take away someone's same-sex attraction in order to love them - he already loves them. He wants us to know, so deeply, that we do not have to change for him to love us.
It is very hard to advocate for yourself when it feels like no one around us is affirming that we are unconditionally loved by God as we are. It can be hard to stay strong when our environment is so discouraging. There is no simple Christian answer that will change that the fact that that is just plain hard. The only thing I can offer is the quiet wisdom of knowing deep within your being that you and God have the last laugh - that those who are so afraid and so hateful have it wrong. I pray that you will know a deep and quiet confidence that enables you to hold your head high in the sure knowledge that you are God's Beloved son!
Steven,
ReplyDeleteYour logic sounds a lot like the reformed systematic theology that I grew up with. I have seen people behave in ways that were counter to their intuitive sense of kindness and compassion in order to hold to such a belief system - and I have seen other people walk away from faith entirely because of some of the reasons you list: they understand the logic of the system - they just disagree with what it concludes. Others, tragically, were unable to preserve as sense of self or hope or reason to live and took their own life in the assumption that they must be predestined for hell anyway.
Given this background, I have a lot of emotional response as I read your comments. I have seen how much damage such a theological system can wreak on people. In my own life, it was an unsustainable system - because it did not square with what I saw in the person of Jesus Christ, who Scripture says is the exact representation of the Father and the way we come to know God.
For my faith to survive such a system, I had to risk deconstructing what seemed to be such inherent logic in the theological conclusions. What I came to discover as I explored different traditions in theology and worship, is that embracing mystery would be essential if I was to retain my faith. I don't believe that the Bible is meant to be a logical, systematic exposition of how God engages his world. Rather, I believe that Scripture exists to show us how to engage with God - a God we will never fully fathom or understand this side of heaven. I believe that God created the world out of the overflow of the love within the Trinity: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And I believe that God not only created out of love, but sustains the world out of love. While there are Scriptural texts that speak of judgment and hell, there are undeniable texts that speak of God's universal love. This is where faith comes in. Faith is hoping in what is not yet seen. If there is a tension between love being God's character and the questions that are raised about judgment and hell - then I will have faith to believe that God's love will triumph in the end. I most certainly could be wrong. But believing in love as God's primary attribute, I am able to live my life extending love, living in hope, and joining in that which is good in the world.
I can understand those who live with a spirit of resignation or fatalism - and then certainly one might as well eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die. For myself, when I look at God's story and reflect on how he reveals himself, I see Jesus how reached to the margins, extended love and care and compassion, broke the power of death and hopelessness, and gifted his children with the power of the Holy Spirit so that we could continue the reconciling, renewing work that he incarnated and lived while on earth.
I would be the first to admit, that there are many aspects of the Christian religion that seem very distant and perhaps even contradictory to such vision. I can only imagine that when violence, oppression, selfishness, and injustice are perpetrated in his name, that God must weep and rage and focus his power on working things together for good despite the ways that Christians bastardize a system they built in his name.
Wendy
ReplyDeleteYour response is pretty typical of educated Christians I've spoken to in the past. The Bible gives such a bleak picture of arbitrary divine judgment and retribution that in order to make God a more compassionate presence the basic logic of sin and consequences has to be swept aside or superseded by the all-enveloping concept of Mystery. Don't like what the Bible says? Don't worry! Have faith in Mystery and all will be well.
It's a bit too glib, don't you think? Like a pat on the head and a "There, there, I'm sure God didn't mean that. He loves you so everything will be fine..."
Sorry, but it just doesn't ring true. It sounds like something a mother might say to a recalcitrant child who's just broken a window and is quaking in his boots at the prospect of Daddy coming home. Punishment there will be no matter how thickly you trowel on the love and affection.
Biblical condemnation of gay sex seems pretty clear cut to me. I've heard the gay Christian reinterpretations of the clobber passages and they just don't convince me. Gay sex seems to be just as unacceptable to God as murder and any other sin you care to mention.
This being the case, there isn't much room for Mystery. If you try to confuse the issue by proclaiming God's will to be beyond our ken then all you're really doing is fudging the issue.
It seems clear to me that God has arbitrarily decided to make sex a test of obedience. Not just for gays. There are plenty of straights who, if they follow Biblical sexual morality, will probably never know the joy of intimate relations with someone they love. The unattractive, the disabled, the plain unlucky. Is the pain and loneliness of a homely virgin spinster any less compelling than that of a gay man? You could argue that it is because at least the virgin spinster can hope that one day her prince will come. The gay man can do nothing but face the prospect of lifelong celibacy. For no apparent reason other than God has decided that this is how it should be.
Surely God must realize there's no way I can follow His commandment and remain sane. Either I have love and sex (or at least the hope of love and sex) or I sink into despondency, depression and mental illness. It's a Catch 22 situation: I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. So I choose to do. If I'm going to be damned, I might as well have a brief moment of enjoyment before God takes His vengeance on me.
As I said, this is the reality of faith for many in the LGBT community. Talk of Mystery and how we can't know God's real intentions is just obfuscation. Almost as if the people saying it know we're for the chop and are just trying to take our minds off the inevitable so we don't get too scared before Daddy comes home to wallop us.
Very worthy of you, I'm sure, and I suppose such compassion will earn you many Brownie points with a God who, like many straights, certainly seems to have no doubts about His own righteousness. I mean, straight judges never permit prisoners on Death Row to be ill-treated in the run up to their executions, do they? Oh no. They remand them to the care of nice, kind prison warders who distract the condemned from their fate with words like "I'm sure your appeal will be granted" or "Maybe the Governor will issue a pardon". Until sentence is passed and they watch the execution with grim satisfaction that justice has finally been done.
So what will your reward be for distracting us from the fate that awaits us, Wendy? Prime real estate overlooking God's throne once you get to heaven? Enjoy your eternity in the Dress Circle. Who knows, maybe some of that ducted heat that keeps you so cosy and warm during the heavenly cold season will be coming straight from my own combustion. Rap on the pipes if it gets too cold and I'll try and burn a little faster for you...
Tis true Steven that there is nothing new under the sun. I hardly have anything novel or new to add to what you have already discussed with other followers of Christ. I suppose anyone can talk themselves into or out of faith. I am not one to debate or argue from an apologetic perspective. For me, everything is centered on relationship: relationship with God and with each other. So I'm not sure that sparring with someone in a public forum where there is little to no real relationship is helpful for anyone. I can respect that you have thought through many of these things. At the end of the day, you and I have very different approaches to scripture and to our understanding and beliefs about the character of God. God gave humanity, at great price, the gift of free will. I will choose to use my free will to believe that in the end, God's love will be what remains. I believe it will be stronger and deeper and wider than anything else - and in that love all will be made new.
ReplyDeleteNow see, here's why I think the Catholic Church is so opposed to the ministry of women. It's the whole maternal reassurance thing. No fact, no injunction, no divine exhortation can ever be strong enough to stand in the face of motherly love.
ReplyDeleteWhat does any self-respecting mom say when scripture characterizes her child's action as sin? "There there darlin', don't mind what that nasty ole Bible says, listen to your Mama when she tells you everthing's gonna be just fine. You're perfect the way you are and don't let no book tell you otherwise."
Maternal love is blind, they say. Perhaps the Catholics recognize this and feel there's a conflict of interest between the role of mother and spiritual advisor. Is it any surprise that the churches where women are ordained are at the forefront of the fight to reinterpret scripture in favor of gay relationships?
Of course you'd think I'd be all for this, given that I'm in a gay relationship and all. But when I look at the mothers I know and see how blind they are to the sins and shortcomings of their own children and how they spend their lives finding excuses for them, I can't help wondering whether relying on them for spiritual guidance is a good idea. Shades of Nursie from Blackadder II (if you're familiar with classic British sitcoms) spring to mind. Does unquestioning, indiscriminate validation ever do anyone any good? Or is it better to face the truth, no matter how unpalatable it might be?
No fact, no injunction, no divine exhortation can ever be strong enough to stand in the face of motherly love.
ReplyDeleteI vehemently disagree. Motherly love does not preclude the possibility of saying "enough is enough." I've seen plenty of mothers who love their children, yet make hard choices when confronted with their children's self- and other-destructive behavior. For some examples of that, I suggest you check out some of the blogs that various mothers of addicts maintain.
What you're describing is not a problem with motherhood, it's a problem with codependency and enabling. It's also not a problem exclusive to mothers or even women.
1. I am very thankful for Wendy's encouragement.
ReplyDelete2. I think Steven has been clear; and it's depressing.
3. I ask God every day if He really thought that this was a wise decision.
Andy,
ReplyDeleteWe engage Scripture in many different ways. Steven's opinions are clear and logical. However, there are others, with extensive biblical studies, who engage Scripture in a different manner. Without faith, we cannot know God. Even with faith we only see through a glass dimly. But, faith means we leap off the cliff trusting that God is good. If we don't believe God is good, why would we leap off the cliff? Why would we have faith? The Scriptures are full of stories that show God's goodness, faithfulness and love. And again and again the people of God are reminded to remember that the Lord brought his people out of Egypt - a most dramatic demonstration of his love and care.
When I am discouraged and overwhelmed by my unanswered questions, I often remind myself, "Whom have I in heaven but you?" In other words, I would rather entrust myself to a loving God I choose to believe in than to simply rely on myself. I need Someone bigger and greater than myself. I need Someone who is more faithful and more loving and more gracious than myself. So for me, it is worth the risk to continue to love and trust in God.
"I think Steven has been clear; and it's depressing."
ReplyDeleteDepressing? I'm not sure why. We are who we were made to be, after all.
If God really has predestined us for damnation, then damned is what we're supposed to be. It may seem like an unpleasant prospect, but if you look at it logically, I don't think it can be as bad as all that.
I mean, when you think about it, the concept of eternal suffering is a logical impossibility. Knowing you're going to suffer forever means you can have no hope. Without hope there can be no reason. And without reason there can be no human mind as we know it. That being the case, it seems to me that the consciousness of a damned individual must dissipate pretty quickly, together with all sense of identity. In other words, damnation must be just another word for oblivion.
Now, given that the kingdom is (apparently) going to be totally straight, oblivion sounds like a pretty good alternative to me. Imagine waking up in Stepford and knowing there's no escape! I don't know about you, but my mind would certainly collapse within a millisecond of that realization. Then God may do what He likes with whatever's left. I will have ceased to exist so I'll know nothing about it.
That's no more depressing than atheism and I know plenty of happy-go-lucky atheists. All you have to do is get your mind around the fact that your consciousness is finite with a distinct beginning and end and forget about the idea of eternity. We weren't created to be eternal. We're God's disposable children...
I do not think we are disposable to God, neither am I a believer in predestination. That said, I am eager for God to answer for himself in this matter. I hope He does.
ReplyDeleteI specifically wish to know directly that God cares specifically about gay people and thir experiences.
I don't mean to argue theology here, but if God is omniscient then when He created me He must have known I would be gay and would not be able to live a celibate life.
ReplyDeleteFree will is all very well, but God must have known what my free choices would be and yet still He chose to create me in the full knowledge that I would not be able to conform to Biblical sexual morality and thus not be eligible for salvation. Whether you call that predestination or not hardly matters. The point is that for God to be God He must be omniscient so He must be aware of every choice I'll ever make. Can God ever be surprised?
None of which presupposes the futility of the existence of gay people. We must have some kind of a role to play in His plan or I don't think we'd be here. Reading between the lines of scripture, I get the feeling that ours is a supporting role. We enable the salvation of others. Take Wendy for example. If we didn't exist, who would enable her to show the love and compassion that are her ticket to heaven?
So yes, I think we're disposable. I don't think God loves us in any recognizably human way. I mean, it's a funny kind of love that created me as a tool for the salvation of others and only sees value in me as a means to an end. A bit like the love of parents for a designer baby conceived solely as an organ bank for a beloved sick elder child. Would you call that love? I don't think I would.
Which again, if God is God, must be another symptom of my general depravity and unfitness for salvation. And yet I was born this way, so the ultimate responsibility must lie with God.
I wonder, who'll judge Him?
Calvinism makes my mind explode as far as I have been exposed to it. I am not a Calvinist although this is the one thing in my life that has me wondering if predestination isn't true after all.
ReplyDeleteIt's also the one thing that makes me wonder if atheists aren't right after all.
I won't even try to counter your reasoning, as I believe that God has to defend Himself.
Well, I hope you're a patient man. I think you'll have to wait a long, long time before God comes to you with cap in hand proferring explanations and excuses. I just don't think He works that way.
ReplyDeleteIt's quite logical really. If all we are to God are pawns in His plan then He owes us no more of an explanation than we would owe to a chess piece we've just sacrificed for some kind of strategic gain. He can do what He likes with us and our thoughts, opinions and beliefs count for nothing. That's subjection for you...
I just don't think anyone will get the kind of explanation they think God owes them. I mean, do you explain your chess strategy in detail to the pieces that remain on the board once you've mated your opponent? Seems to me that all these faithful Christians eagerly awaiting explanations are going to be sorely disappointed once they get to heaven. Or maybe they'll just be so drugged up on the divine presence that they won't care any more.
Does this make me a Calvinist? I'm not aware of being one. Perhaps some of my ideas coincide with some of theirs, but you won't see me in a Presbyterian church any time soon. Or a Catholic, Anglican, Orthodox or sundry Protestant one either. I don't go to church. Why bother grovelling to God when my fate is already sealed?
Given some of the comments about Calvinism ... thought I'd share this link that critiques some recent statements by John Piper, one of the more well-known American voices in the neo-reformed movement in the U.S. http://theamericanjesus.net/?p=5396
ReplyDeleteThe crazy thing about the Bible is its breadth and diversity such that someone who claims to take it literally can end up with a portrait of god that seems the antithesis of what many followers of Christ believe God, reflected through Jesus, is like.
There's no getting away from slaughter and rapine in the Old Testament. God is a great deal more challenging than the milksop, lovey-dovey image that liberal Christians have embroidered for themselves.
ReplyDeleteWhat I find strange is how you choose to draw a veil over the difficult stuff and try to present God as some kind of divine Bambi when the Bible is full of His hatred, rage and vengeance. It's like willful self-deception.
But of course that's your concern, not mine. All I know is that both the Old and New Testaments tell me quite plainly that I will not inherit the kingdom of God. So no matter how lovey-dovey and forgiving God may be to you, there'll be no grace for me or any other gay person who's committed the heinous crime of loving and being loved in return. Bear that in mind while you're ooh-ing and ah-ing over how marvelously wonderful and forgiving God can be. Perhaps He can be. Just not to us.
Steven - it would seem that your logic is solid to you and therefore anyone who believes something different about how to engage the text is worthy of your contempt and mockery.
ReplyDeleteFor others, however, this isn't solely about logic - the primary element is faith. Faith is being sure of what we hope for .... and faith gives us room, beyond logic, to engage the scriptures as a paradoxical mix of the divine and the human. Humans have written the scriptures in a particular time and place, history and culture. And God's story has been conveyed through these vehicles.
But, God has revealed himself most fully through Jesus. So, that means I will look at all other scriptures through the lens of Christ. In Christ I see someone who went to the social margins and brought into community all those that religion had cast aside. In this current context, I have faith that this now speaks to the reality of LGBT people. I believe that if Jesus was on earth today, his ministry would have engaged and included LGBT people.
Not only that, I believe the testimony of gay Christians who speak of the presence of God in their lives, their experience of his grace, and their confidence in his love. That may not match up with your logical conclusions about a text - but that is your concern, not mine.
My views, values and beliefs are grounded in my faith - and I believe in a loving God. I can support this with scripture - but beyond that my tradition, experience and reason - all empowered by the Holy Spirit - confirm it to me.
At the end of the day, I could be wrong and you could be right. But I will have lived my life with the joy of believing in a loving God - and I wouldn't trade that for anything.
Wendy
ReplyDeleteContempt and mockery? Just because I don't believe in a milksop God? Why do liberal "God is a big fluffy bunny rabbit" Christians react so violently to the suggestion that He may actually have teeth?
But no matter, looking past the typical passive/aggressive response pattern I encounter so regularly on this type of blog and dealing with your actual arguments rather than your attitude...
"In Christ I see someone who went to the social margins and brought into community all those that religion had cast aside."
And then told them to go and sin no more.
Christ forgave those who repented, asked for forgiveness and undertook to at least try to change their sinful behavior. Their inclusion was predicated on their acceptance of Christ's morality.
I on the other hand do not repent of what scripture tells me is one of my sins: gay sex. I ask for no forgiveness, I most certainly don't repent and I have no intention of trying to change my behavior.
So, what would Christ do in my case? Does the fact that as a gay man I find myself on the "social margins" (whose social margins, I wonder - obviously you consider us to be marginal...) mean that I have to do no work whatsoever to be saved? Will Christ pardon me my sins - even the ones I don't repent of - merely because I'm on the social margins?
Honestly, if all it takes to be forgiven is to belong to a disadvantaged minority then I might as well go the whole hog and sin a bit more...
No matter what the apologists say, Lev. 18:22 is clear. If I don't repent then how can I be forgiven?
I guess this comes down to how you view scripture.
ReplyDelete