There has been a lot of buzz of late about changes in the
focus of Exodus International under Alan Chambers’ leadership. As many of our readers will know, New
Direction used to be a member ministry of Exodus. In fact, I served as the Regional Rep for
Canada for about three years. In that time, I
did my best to encourage the network to step back from debates about causation,
to focus on discipleship rather than reorientation change, and to cease any
involvement in political matters that would impede or prevent civil equity for
LGBT people. It seems that some five
years later some of these changes are being incorporated into Exodus as it
moves forward.
In my last conversation
with Alan, I encouraged him to think very carefully about how Exodus will
navigate dialogue with those who hold affirming views in the future. He and I both know that societal attitudes
are shifting at an incredible pace, at least in North America. These shifts are happening both outside of
and inside of the Christian community. I
challenged Alan to think about the potential role Exodus could play in modeling
peace-making and being a catalyst of respectful dialogue in the midst of
diverse perspectives on the question of gay marriage for Christians.
Where I particularly hope to see more change at Exodus is on
the question of identity. I have written
about this before and so I won’t belabor it here. I think that the way people describe their
identity is intrinsically linked to their ability to be honest and live an
authentic life. It is true that we
ascribe meaning to the description of our identity – but such meaning is not
determined simply by the description.
Rather, each individual determines the meaning they will ascribe to the
way they choose to describe their identity.
For example, many women describe an aspect of their identity as being a
mom. But being a mom means different
things for different women. For some
women, being a mom means they live vicariously through their children and their
sense of worth is directly connected to how successful their children are in
school or in their various activities.
For others, being a mom is balanced by other aspects of their identity
such as their faith, their marital status, their vocation and their social
context.
Certainly, people of faith can be encouraged to prioritize
their sense of identity as being primarily found in their connection with
God. For example, my deepest security is
found in my identity as a Beloved child of God.
That doesn’t mean, however, that I’m not honest about describing other
aspects of my identity.
My understanding of Exodus’ current emphasis is that same-sex
attracted people should focus only on their identity as a Christian. My sense is that it is stilled viewed as
unhelpful to simply say, “I’m gay” (meaning simply that the person experiences
same-sex attraction). I continue to
feel that this compromises an individual’s ability to live honestly and
authentically and may also affect their own sense of self-acceptance.
Now that Exodus seems to be rejecting an emphasis on
reorientation, another outstanding question will be how they will address the
pain of ex-gay survivors. As I look at
the last five years at New Direction, we have had opportunity to listen to a
lot of stories from those who experienced harm in their ex-gay experience. At times, we’ve had the opportunity to have a
more intimate, one-on-one conversation with those who had used New Direction’s
services. Where we can, we’ve done our
best to offer apologies and to make amends where applicable, as limited as they may be.
But we acknowledge that this is an ongoing process for us – even as we
encourage Exodus to consider how they will act on this matter in the
future.
In light of that, I have prepared a letter that will be a
part of our main corporate website. I am
often asked if we have followed up with past recipients. The challenge with that is our desire to
honour the privacy of such individuals.
While some may appreciate the contact and the opportunity to share their
story and hear of the evolution in the ministry, others may feel violated or have
old memories unnecessarily triggered.
However, our hope is that by posting this letter in a prominent place on
our main website, that people will have the opportunity to contact us should
they wish to discuss their past experiences.
We would be glad to hear your feedback and suggestions in
the comment section as we strive to serve those who others as they process
their ex-gay experiences. It is our
prayer that past or present, all those who connect with New Direction would encounter
a safe and spacious place to explore and grow in their faith in Jesus Christ.
To any individuals formerly connected with New Direction
Ministries,
I recently met with two gentlemen who had been recipients of
New Direction’s services. One was from
the early years, before I took my role in 2002.
The other had connected just a few years ago. I had never met either of them before, but I
am grateful they took the time to meet with me at Starbucks.
Both indicated that their New Direction experience had been
negative. And they both wanted to know
if New Direction had really taken a new direction – or if some of the kinder
sounding language on the website was just a gentler way of presenting the same
old paradigm. These are really
legitimate questions. And I understand
the skepticism that I encountered.
One of the first things they asked was whether or not New
Direction continued to promote ex-gay theology.
When I asked them to clarify for me what they meant by that, they raised
some key points:
- · Do we think being gay is a choice? No, we do not. We don’t know exactly what causes different people to experience consistent attraction to their own gender. It seems to be a complex combination of different factors for different people. But we certainly recognize that for many people who identify as gay, they have sensed something intrinsically unique about themselves for as long as they can remember. As they grew and developed they realized that this uniqueness could be described as being gay. One way to describe this could be a constitutional same-sex orientation where there is little to no fluidity. A person doesn’t choose to experience this – they just do.
- · Do we believe that there is something intrinsically wrong with being gay? Is being gay a sin? No, we do not. We do not believe that experiencing same-sex attraction is sinful. As I’ve listened to many stories of ex-gay survivors over the years, one common theme I hear is the deep damage that resulted from feeling unworthiness, shame, and self-loathing. The truth is, each human being, regardless of their sexual or gender identity, is created in the image of God, has inherent worth and dignity, and is unconditionally loved by God. We acknowledge that Christians disagree with one another about whether a same-sex sexual relationship is sinful or not. Where we encounter such disagreement we seek to promote dialogue and an environment that honours the autonomy of the individual.
- · Do we believe that a person must try to be heterosexual to be a faithful Christian? No, we do not. Our status as reconciled children of God is completely God’s gift to us through our faith in Jesus Christ. This gift of salvation transforms our lives such that we want to live out our grateful response. In light of this, Christians seek to become more and more like Christ. We see this manifested in the fruits of the Spirit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness, goodness and self-control. Research has shown that radical change in sexual orientation is rare. We have seen Christians so focused on trying to become heterosexual that the rest of their life suffered. We encourage people to accept their reality regarding their sexual identity and to focus on drawing near to God in the confidence of his love for them. We acknowledge that gay Christians have different beliefs and make different choices about whether or not to enter a same-sex relationship. Our focus is to encourage people to prayerful reflection, discerning engagement with Scripture, and faithful participation in a community of faith.
We do not have a statement on marriage on our website. And we are not focused on promoting a
particular view regarding the question of gay marriage. Our focus is to nurture environments within
our faith communities where sexual and gender minority individuals can explore
and grow in faith in Jesus Christ. We
work to encourage our churches and Christian organizations to be places of
radical hospitality where our differences do not fracture us – but allow us to
grow in the opportunity to extend humble grace to one another as we all seek to
follow and live for Christ.
I want to acknowledge that people have been hurt by ex-gay
paradigms. I know people experienced
shame. I know people felt “less than”. I know that some people’s faith never
recovered from the experience. This
causes me deep grief and motivates me to be very clear that New Direction does not
promote an ex-gay mindset. We want to be
part of the movement within the Christian community that recognizes and affirms the full
humanity, worth and dignity of our LGBT sisters and brothers (lesbian, gay,
bisexual, transgender).
We care about the people who have connected with New
Direction, past and present, would appreciate the opportunity to hear your
story, and invite your input and suggestions as we continue to shape this
ministry to be a place that promotes generous spaciousness and hospitality in
the Christian community.
If you would like to have a conversation about your
experience with New Direction, please don’t hesitate to contact me
personally.
Shalom,
Wendy Gritter
Executive Director
I appreciate your letter and its intention. However, for me it's missing a direct, affirmative statement whether gays and lesbians can be sexually whole and have healthy, fulfilling lives.
ReplyDeleteAdmittedly, I have no history with ND, so please forgive me if I'm projecting my own ex-gay experience onto ND's past. For me the ex-gay movement's message that homosexuality is a sign of sexual/spiritual brokenness and rooted in bad parenting, overbearing mothers, distant fathers, childhood trauma, sexual abuse, stunted social development, insufficient masculinity/feminine identity, etc., etc. are the most harmful and difficult messages to overcome.
Although it's great that Exodus may be shifting away from reparative therapy and changing sexual orientation, I've yet to see evidence that it is giving up the stigmatization that homosexuality is a symptom of sexual/spiritual brokenness.
Hi Norm - it has been a while since I've seen a comment from you - welcome back.
ReplyDeleteThe language around brokenness is so difficult. For many Christians, brokenness is a concept that explains our condition in a fallen world that is in the process of being restored and redeemed by Christ. It is a redemption that is assured - but not yet fully realized.
In this sense, a concept like sexual brokenness encompasses the entire human race because none of us perfectly stewards our drive to overcome our aloneness.
However, in the ex-gay paradigm there was such an emphasis on sexual brokenness that seemed to be particularly reserved for those who experienced same-sex attraction that it wounded the capacity to primarily and fundamentally believe that each human being is first and foremost loved by God, created in his image, and worth of dignity and respect. I hear this wounding in so many of the ex-gay survivor stories that I hear.
I would most certainly want to make a very clear statement of affirmation to counteract such wounding. At New Direction we believe that gay people are deeply loved by God as they are, are worthy of dignity and respect and have just as much capacity to live whole and healthy lives as anyone else.
I know many folks who have survived ex-gay ministries and have now adopted a belief system that views human beings as intrinsically good. In some cases, this may seem to be a reaction to the "worm theology" that often permeated ex-gay programs (ie. I'm nothing more than a worm before a holy God).
For many Christians, this kind of belief system seems too inconsistent with the witness in Scripture that describes humanity as needing a Saviour, an advocate to reconcile them to God.
New Direction affirms the need of the human race for a Saviour and we believe that this Saviour is Jesus Christ. We believe he is making all things right and all things whole - and that each and every part of creation, including every human being, needs this gift of grace. But we don't believe that LGBT people need it any more or any less than anyone else. In that sense, we believe that the ground is level at the foot of Christ. And we believe that he gives his grace and extends reconciliation lavishly to anyone who asks.
In addition, we often speak very clearly to the church that if any voices are missing from our communion, then we are impoverished. Not only do we affirm our equity as human beings, we affirm that we need one another - and if anyone is diminished, marginalized or excluded - then we are all diminished and suffer that loss.
Hi Wendy,
ReplyDeleteThank you for clarifying. I appreciate your statement, "At New Direction we believe that gay people are deeply loved by God as they are, are worthy of dignity and respect and have just as much capacity to live whole and healthy lives as anyone else."
The affirming statements are wonderfully written. However, I'm concerned that it may not distinguish ND's, er, new direction
from its Exodus/ex-gay past. Exodus and the ex-gay movement craft very similar-sounding, nuanced affirming sentiments. I would suspect most ex-gay ministries would affirm gay people are loved by God, deserve respect and dignity, and can be made whole and healthy -- with confession, repentance, and redemption.
My main suggestion is to be more specific about which messages ND has previously promoted and now denounces.
I am very grateful for the efforts you are making.
ReplyDeleteDo you know what it's like to actually feel like a person? Like you're not a freak of some sort?
As I have said before, this generous spaciousness will never see the light of day in my country or church, but I am happy to have encountered it here.
Hi Wendy,
ReplyDeleteAs usual, some very excellent posts.
I'd like to pick up and expand a bit on Norm's themes; particularly, the central issue of homosexuality as 'mental illness'. Cut-to-the-chase, that's exactly what many Christians, et. al., believe about homosexuals. I think this is what we need clarified by Exodus and anyone else having a ministry to persons with same-sex attractions. This is the bottom line that needs to be addressed.
Exodus, and its now splintered ministries, sees homosexuals much like pedophiles ... that's why all the work, time, energy through the years spent unmaking us.
I believe that Exodus still sees homosexuals as mentally ill (spiritually sick). They've finally realized that for most of us, our orientation is not about to change. However, the base issue of homosexuals being uniquely sinful and loathsome still drives what they do, imo. What's this issue about having to repent for something I didn't choose?
This is the heart of the matter for all of us homosexuals. Does ND ascribe to homosexuality as a mental illness? When you meet any of us, same sex attracted persons, Wendy, do you meet us as mentally ill persons? Exodus does, for sure.
Hi Norm & Teresa - when I came to the ministry in 2002 we pretty quickly took steps away from a focus on re-orientation or reparative therapy. I hired a staff member who was very clear about being as gay as he'd ever been despite doing the ex-gay thing for many years. So, I would say that we have had fairly affirming statements regarding the value and dignity of LGBT persons for most of my tenure. The reason I state that LGBT people have as much capacity as anyone else to live a healthy and whole life - is that there are LGBT people who are not living healthy or whole lives .... not because they are LGBT intrinsically, but because they've been wounded or made poor choices in their lives etc. This wounding or poor choices could be exactly the same as realities that a straight person has experienced that limits the health and wholeness in their life. To make a blanket statement that says all LGBT people are healthy and whole doesn't serve anyone - because it simply isn't true. I also wouldn't make a blanket statement saying that all straight people are healthy and whole - because that simply isn't true either.
ReplyDeleteBut I do not think that LGBT people are mentally ill, I do not think they need to repent because of their experience of attraction to their own gender, I do not think they are intrinsically different or less than because they experience same-sex attraction.
And I encourage people, whoever they are, to come to a healthy self-acceptance and to do the work necessary to overcome hurts that have been done to them and/or gain self-mastery in areas where addiction or vice nips at their heels. I do not view same-sex attraction as an addiction or vice BTW. I view same-sex attraction as simply a reality that some people experience - just like other people experience opposite sex attraction.
Hope that clarifies things.
Andy - I hope that you will nurture generous spaciousness within your own sense of self. I hope you will guard a sense of worth and value in your own heart - and that you will not let anyone take that confidence and security away from you. And I pray that God will empower a deep and resilient sense of hope within you.
Thank you, Wendy, for explicating in full ND's beliefs. And, to add, how Christ-like, in word and deed, ND's posture is.
ReplyDeleteI continue to be amazed, Wendy, by your openness, kindness, compassion, and lack of fear in letting persons be who they are ... and, yet, being who you are, all the while.
The following quote from you, Wendy, needs to be shouted from the rooftops:
"And I encourage people, whoever they are, to come to a healthy self-acceptance and to do the work necessary to overcome hurts that have been done to them and/or gain self-mastery in areas where addiction or vice nips at their heels. I do not view same-sex attraction as an addiction or vice BTW. I view same-sex attraction as simply a reality that some people experience - just like other people experience opposite sex attraction."
So, Wendy, I have one last question for you: how did you come to such a place of "kindness" ... what spiritual practices led you?
Thank you again.
Teresa - I actually think the most transformative thing in my own personal life that has helped me on the journey to this point is the experience of suffering. When you suffer deeply because of a reality you did not choose and cannot change, you become enlarged in the capacity to be generous, kind, patient and humble towards others. The reality in my own life was not same-sex attraction - but it was something significant that weighed on me every single day, causing me pain, disappointment, frustration, and exhaustion. Like many gay people, I had to deconstruct many things I'd been taught about God, the Bible and the Christian life, in order to find space to breathe, to believe that God loved me even if I made a choice that others would view as wrong, and to have confident hope that my personhood and humanity mattered to God (not just my radical commitment, obedience or discipleship). Along the way, I was often challenged and encouraged by the lives of many of the gay Christians I came to know. I often saw great courage, sacrifice and resilient faith in the face of rejection, marginalization, judgment and loss. Though my journey is different, I share in those realities as I seek to be fearless in believing that God's love enfolds us.
ReplyDeleteI suppose in terms of spiritual disciplines, the bedrock foundation is consistently dismantling the fear to know that I know that I know that I am a Beloved Child of God. When you know this deeply and fearlessly, you don't have to be mean-spirited or judgmental towards others .... are you free to love as you have been loved.
As Plato said, "Be kind, everyone is fighting a hard battle." When you really know this, it is (usually) not difficult to be kind and loving to others.
"...and to have confident hope that my personhood and humanity mattered to God (not just my radical commitment, obedience or discipleship)"
ReplyDelete--------
This is why I check here often.
I could not use better words.
I think of a story copied in the gay mag "extra" a year or so ago. In it a lady wrote the Anglican bishop of Toronto asking why he allowed the word "anglican" to be used in the gay parade. The bishop wrote back saying that he couldn't control the use of that word and really what was the problem with it being used anyway. He said that he didn't go to the gay parade because he was away but all his family did and they loved it. I was a bit surprised by his response. I have been to many gay pride parades and they are fairly sexualized in my view. It made me wonder if a heterosexual parade offered as many sexual options and was as supportive of sexual relationships outside of marriage whether he would recommend that to his parishioners. I don't think he would. Why the difference? The point is that I don't think the word gay means same sex attracted only. I don't think it is simply a description of one's romantic or sexual attractions. I believe that is why it is okay to go to a gay parade but to go to a sexualized heterosexual parade might not be as acceptable for Christians. There is something different here. So, I think 'gay' encompasses more than just a description of desire....I think it actually encompasses a move towards a different world view. If that is true, that doesn't mean that Christians can't use it as an identifier but that if they do I do believe that they should be aware that within that package there may be more than they bargained for. For them it may mean SSA only but for others it may mean much more. In my own personal use of that word I found that people automatically assumed an awful lot of things about me that simply weren't true. Many, many people in our culture jump to a bunch of sexual conclusions at the use of 'gay' that a believer in Jesus Christ may not be comfortable with. That may just be the reality of our culture whether the sexual implications are true or not. So, my points are this. 1) I think gay means, in the minds of much of our culture, much more than simply same sex attracted 2) As an identity term it may be a term that Christians should consider carefully because of those other attachments of meaning and 3) If the above is true, I don't think it is necessarily unwise for Exodus to caution people in regard to the use of 'gay' as an identifier because it may actually contain elements of a world view that aren't Biblical (even if gay affirming) and may lead to a lot of reverse discrimination.
ReplyDeletelove your work Wendy.....mentioned you in my recent article.
ReplyDeletehttp://gayambassador.blogspot.com.au/2012/07/two-thirds-of-ex-gay-ministries.html
thanks Anthony.
ReplyDeleteI believe Anon made a very good point here. I was going to ask you if you believe I'm being less honest if I choose not to label myself or describe myself as gay? I am completely comfortable telling people that ssa is a factor in my life but calling myself gay does not best describe me because of such a loosely and diverse way of using such a terminology... I am a woman and I am a Christian who just happens to be same sex attracted seems to me a very honest approach but somehow it appears you might believe it is not unless I directly describe myself as gay. Is that not true Wendy? I have a post gay christian biblical world view... would I then be honest and congruent with myself and others if I continue to describe myself as gay? Is there spaciousness in your world to allow for christians with a post gay biblical world view? If so, then you'd have to allow for such dialogue with regards to identity and how one may choose to describe himself or herself to others especially if they live their lives through the lens of their faith and not their sexuality... especially if their experience of same sex attraction is not what they or myself believe to be what describes my identity.
ReplyDeleteThere are times for the sake of communication I may use such terminology... usually when I'm in dialogue with people who do describe themselves or identify themselves as gay or lesbian but I use the terminology carefully. I get an idea of how the individual I'm talking to will use the term but for me I'm not gay plus everything else. I am not a gay christian I am a Christian who is same sex attracted as I don't use my sexuality or my race as a subdescriber to my faith.. I'm simply just a Christian and my experience is what I experience and that would include my attractions and whichever way my attractions seem to lean towards... which seems to be more fluid these days whereas before I began my post gay christian journey I was pretty fixed and didn't think opposite sex attraction would ever be possible... so I basically spent years and years ONLY same sex attracted and today opposite sex attraction has increased... but I'll be honest that there has been no change in same sex attraction nor is that or has that been my primary focus ever, such change has been a byproduct of my faith live and walked out. That said, it is my experience and I don't promote or even expect that other people will experience what I have experienced...
so, I do have my concerns regarding Exodus at the moment but certainly not enough to distance myself from Exodus and stop interacting with Exodus. Now back to you and New Directions... are you saying that in order for me to be truly honest with you, with others, and with myself, that I have to start describing myself as gay?
No Sarah Jane - that is not what I am saying. If people choose to not describe themselves as gay for whatever particular reason that is completely their choice. What I am saying is that people should have the choice to describe themselves as gay if they want to without all kinds of assumptions being levied at them.
ReplyDelete"My understanding of Exodus’ current emphasis is that same-sex attracted people should focus only on their identity as a Christian. My sense is that it is stilled viewed as unhelpful to simply say, “I’m gay” (meaning simply that the person experiences same-sex attraction). I continue to feel that this compromises an individual’s ability to live honestly and authentically and may also affect their own sense of self-acceptance."
ReplyDeleteHow is making the choice to not allow for your sexuality to define or even describe your identity and personhood compromising an individuals ability to olive honestly and authentically or affect their oen sense of self acceptance?
If a person is discouraged from describing themselves as gay - despite their feeling that it would be the most honest way to talk about their reality - then this would inhibit them from being able to live an honest and authentic life beyond their own internal processing. If someone is essentially told, "Only describe your identity as being that of a Child of God" that limits their ability to express themselves honestly and live authentically in all the other areas of their life. This in turn limits their ability to feel comfortable and confident in who they are. Consider this example: I am a mom to three kids. If the Christians around me said, "Wendy, being a mom can become idolatrous in a woman's life - so we would really emphasize that the only identity label you should openly use to describe your life is that of a Christian", I would definitely feel inhibited in living an honest, authentic and self-accepting life. That doesn't mean that my identity as a lover of Jesus isn't my primary identity - it just means that it isn't my only identity. And if I'm going to live honestly and authentically, I need to be able to talk about all of myself in a manner that resonates most with me. I realize that for you, that does not include describing yourself as gay. But for others, that may seem to be the most honest, simple, clear way for them to be share a part of themselves that is significant in terms of how they relate in a social world. It doesn't mean it defines them or that it is the fundamental description who they are - but it is to say that it is an honest and authentic part of who they are.
ReplyDeleteOne more thing ... I asked that question because it seems to me that is what you are saying... You have to admit that using such terminology can be confusing with the wide range and diversity of the usage of such terminology... it really calls for, in some cases, an explanation and clarification because the term gay is used in so many different contexts. Now, it is because within the lgbt community itself the terminology is used so diversely it makes natural sense that a person on a post gay christian journey would want to bring such clarification because the terminology within the lgbt community is so diversely used.
ReplyDeleteWe can't really control how one interprets how one uses such terminology, it could be lack of relationship and lack of understanding where the gay or lesbian identified individual is coming from. It then would make perfectly sense that one would need to bridge such gaps there but it may only be bridged relationally as the two grow to understand where the other is coming from. People make assumptions about how another lives their lives all the time but choosing to bring such clarity and choosing not to allow for one's sexuality to be what defines them doesn't hinder another's ability to live honestly and authentically. Unless you can tell me how somebody else's way of describing themselves affects the ability for another to describe himself or herself?
I agree, people should be able to go about living their lives without being labelled but I'm not responsible for how somebody else views me. Yes, when I get judged that hurts but instead of trying to control the reactions of somebody else it is better to grow beyond such judgement. Besides I've learned over the years that we in our own brokenness tend to judge others quickly, we tend to believe somebody is judging them when in fact we're the ones with a perceived understanding that somebody is judging us when in fact they're not. We think they're judging us because they use a different language... ok well, when you're learning a new language it really is up to both sides to really learn how the other communicates and in the process there will be miscommunication and misunderstanding and only in relationship will the two be able to see and understand the other. Essentially, if you're not in a certain subculture you will basically not get the cultural ques. I don't know about you but with such a diversely way of using such terminology I really wouldn't want for any other organization to determine how I'm using such terminology in such a narrowlistic perspective given the fact that the terminology is such diversely used. I respect that people don't want to be labelled and don't want to be judged or marginalized but it's been my observation that people in the gay and lesbian community are not being marginalized or labelled in the way that folks within the gay and lesbian community were marginalized in the past. If anything there is a growing acceptance and popularity and successes... why? because people in the gay and lesbian community are being recognized for their strengths, their talents, their personalities... and the last thing on people's minds these days are .. "oh, and they're gay" ... I have more thoughts...
"If a person is discouraged from describing themselves as gay - despite their feeling that it would be the most honest way to talk about their reality - then this would inhibit them from being able to live an honest and authentic life beyond their own internal processing."
ReplyDeleteSo... by my understanding.. because I have chosen to not allow for my sexuality to be what defines, labels, or to even be what describes me ie. the use of such terminology as gay... I was at one time or another discouraged from using such terminology... so therefore according to what you have written I would be and should still be inhibited from being able to live an honest and authentic life beyond my internal processing" however, it's been my observation that many individuals who choose to not use such terminology have no problem describing their reality as experiencing same sex attraction, they just don't use the terminology. How is that not honest and authentic?
"If someone is essentially told, "Only describe your identity as being that of a Child of God" that limits their ability to express themselves honestly and live authentically in all the other areas of their life."
Again I choose not to describe my reality as being gay but to describe my experience with same sex attraction but readily identify as being a child of God who just happens to experience same sex attraction. How is that not honest and authentic? And how is that not honest and authentic in all areas of my life?
I am not saying that it is not honest or authentic. I have said numerous times in response to your comments that I will honour your decision to use the language that most resonates with you to describe your experience. I sort of feel like you keep repeating yourself, and I keep repeating myself .... and I'm not sure there is any reason for it. I do not think same-sex attracted people SHOULD use the word gay to describe themselves if they don't want to. I also think that if someone WANTS to use the word gay to describe themselves, they should be able to without sanctions or discouragement from those who presume a lot of assumptions along with that word.
ReplyDeleteHow is what we do a descriptive of who we are? I think your analogy with being a mom is not the best analogy but then again I have no idea of what it is to be a mom, I don't even have an idea of what it's like to even have a mom so I can't really say for sure with this anology ... but I'll go with this.. I'm a sister, I'm an auntie, I'm a daughter, ... this describes my life ... but as stated before... such terminology like mom, sister, auntie these terms are not diversely used the context in which it is used even if used to describe a relationship I may have with an older cousin whom I may call auntie, these terms are not used as diversely as the term gay... usually when a person uses the terminology of gay it has been used in the past to describe more then simply the experience of attractions but rather an identity a relational reality... but for some an experience of same sex attraction is not a relational reality like it would be for somebody else and pending on where you go for moral guidance and spiritual direction will determine whether or not your same sex attraction becomes your relational reality. It's not my relational reality so there really shouldn't be an argument in how one uses such terminology but in relationship you grow to learn the others relational reality. Not many people know I am an auntie, my teenage sister is pregnant with her second baby, I have a twin brother, I have a lot of sisters... as people get to know me they get to know my relational reality for sure but they also get to know my full reality, my experiences like same sex attraction, the loss of my mother, the strained relationship I have with my father... these are all experiences and yes they do shape my reality but my experiences is not the sum of who I am... when I understand that I am a child of God I can hold my experiences in my hand and not care about what others think or allow for my experiences to shame me to the point where I can live honestly and authentically and without shame even with my experiences... why? because I am a child of God and being a child of God means there is intrinsic value in me regardless of somebody else says or believes about me.
ReplyDeleteYou still haven't answered my questions Wendy. You make the assumption that by not using such terminology as gay to describe who you are and your experiences and relational reality or by being encouraged not to use such terminology that you're inhibited from living honest and authentic lives... unless you are back tracking and contradicting yourself here your statement didn't actually allow for an alternative... the alternative for somebody who experiences same sex attraction but doesn't view their same sex attraction to be their relational reality enough to call themselves gay.. you say you honor my decision... ok but you still didn't actually acknowledge that I too could be living authentically and honestly... unless you'd like to correct something in your post here... maybe there should be an acknowledgement of the term gay being diversely used and that could potentially be the reason why there might be some confusion by others outside the lgbt subculture and I have yet to see you acknowledge people who's relational reality doesn't include describing themselves as gay being equally authentic and honest.
ReplyDeleteFor the sake of redundancy ... you said,
ReplyDelete"My understanding of Exodus’ current emphasis is that same-sex attracted people should focus only on their identity as a Christian. My sense is that it is stilled viewed as unhelpful to simply say, “I’m gay” (meaning simply that the person experiences same-sex attraction). I continue to feel that this compromises an individual’s ability to live honestly and authentically and may also affect their own sense of self-acceptance."
In our convo thus far on this thread you seem to be contradicting this statement so let me take a step back.
"I continue to feel that this compromises an individual’s ability to live honestly and authentically and may also affect their own sense of self-acceptance."
I'm telling you that with me your statement does not ring true but you say you feel it does compromises an individual's ability to live honestly and authentically, affecting their one sense of self-acceptance... you didn't say "some people" you didn't give allowance for those who experience same sex attraction but who don't view that being gay is their relational reality or the fact that there was a suggestion given to such individuals in the first place... because at one point or another we are a disciple and we seek people for moral guidance and spiritual direction and so some people were discouraged from allowing their experiences of same sex attraction to inform their relational reality to the point of calling themselves gay... at some point within the context of spiritual direction and moral guidance and individual was discouraged form using the term gay to describe their relational reailty... so my conclusion is that, according to how you feel the individual is compromising their ability to be authentic and honest and perhaps it may very well have lead to affecting an individuals self-acceptance... so ... please explain here...
I think what Wendy said is pretty straightforward. I am not quite sure what's confusing about it:
ReplyDelete1. People should be allowed to describe themselves in the way they see fit without having to carry other people's baggage about certain labels.
2. Whatever amounts to the most authentic way of describing yourself should be accepted.
Andy, I agree, I don't like labels and would much rather see a person beyond whomever they're attracted to.
ReplyDeleteI believe that people should grow beyond the labels and when people do grow beyond the labels some of the assumptions and preconceived ideas may decrease... but you know some people will just make assumptions and I for one would like to help people assume things about other people less and actually get to know people instead of assuming people. My point was, in relationship assumptions usually tend to dissolve... this is the case for any relationship with anybody whether gay straight or whatever... I'm not actually referring to that right now. I'm referring to what Wendy has written, I highlighted a quote and so far there hasn't been a response to that quote or even an answer to my question with regards to that quote...
"My understanding of Exodus’ current emphasis is that same-sex attracted people should focus only on their identity as a Christian. My sense is that it is stilled viewed as unhelpful to simply say, “I’m gay” (meaning simply that the person experiences same-sex attraction). I continue to feel that this compromises an individual’s ability to live honestly and authentically and may also affect their own sense of self-acceptance."
She said, "I continue to feel that this compromises an individual’s ability to live honestly and authentically and may also affect their own sense of self-acceptance."
I'm asking how she feels that way when there are hundreds of people I can think of who would say just the opposite. I describe myself primarily as a child of God. I don't describe myself as gay or lesbian, I completely accept myself, I'm not ashamed of my experiences including same sex attraction... how have I compromised my ability to live honestly and authentically? How has this affected my own sense of self-acceptance?
Here's my understanding... correct me if I'm wrong... I've stated this in previous comments but maybe I can bring clarity in this comment... so sorry if I seem redundant again...
ReplyDeletethere are factors involved that may hinder an individuals ability to live honestly and authentically in community and relationship... it's not over whether or not they have the freedom to describe themselves as gay without somebody assuming all kinds of things... you have to take into account the diversity and human nature... ie there are good people and bad people on all sides... on all sides there will be people with morals and people without morals. And the terminology is diversely used so somebody outside the lgbt community may assume all kinds of things based upon their own experiences whether good or bad. It may not be their fault entirely.
Pending on a person's choice of spiritual direction and moral guidance may influence a persons own sense of identity... just because a person may be discouraged from using the term gay to describe their experiences and attractions doesn't mean the individual cannot be honest and authentic about where they're at and so really within the context of discipleship an individual really has to process the reason for using the terminology and why and then process through why some people would discourage using such terminology and why. For some people they might believe that not describing their experiences of same sex attraction by describing themselves as gay may be in their mind somebody telling them they can't be honest about their attractions as they experience them... but people who discourage using the term gay are not discouraging people from being honest about their feelings and experiences. And so it really depends from person to person... because I don't primarily identify myself as gay I don't describe myself as gay and because my attractions don't become my relational reality, all the more reason for me not to describe myself as gay. This is the difference between being discipeled towards a different relational reality... being a mom, a sister, an auntie are relational realities and being gay doesn't have to be a relational reality... one can experience same sex attraction without same sex attractions influencing a relational reality. But for some, being gay is their relational reality not just an experience... I see this with subtitles like "gay christian" why can't the gay christian just be a christian? why? because being gay is their relational reality... I believe that Christian discipleship is to move beyond a gay relational reality therefore it is vitally important to not allow experiences to become a relational reality. I'm no less authentic and honest about my experiences.... so what else could be factors that may contribute towards somebody being unable to live honestly and authentically? This is not a denial of who I am but rather stepping into a fuller understanding of who I am and not allowing for my experiences and whom I am attracted to to define my relational reality and who it is that I am as a woman created in God's Image.
Wow...this seems very complicated. There are boundaries - we may debate about where they are drawn, but its impossible to deny with any sense of honesty their existence. I agree that in many (maybe most situations) humans do not choose their sexual orientation - it just happens. I also agree that when a person becomes a new creation in Christ, that orientation may not change. People speak of alcoholism being hereditary - that is likely true but it does not give them the freedom to celebrate and embrace their desire to drink. The alcoholic may struggle for the rest of their life with the desire to drink - but to the best of there ability in Christ they resist giving their behaviors over to it. They also don't deny they're an alcoholic and try to convince themselves (and others) they don't feel what they clearly do. Is it fair that an alcoholic was born with genes that compel them to drink? No. But right and wrong is not a function of fairness. I don't believe that giving one's self over to alcohol is any worse or any better than giving ones self over to sexual immortality - whether homo or heterosexual. What's important is discovering what is pleasing to God and developing a relationship with Him that honestly compels you to want to please Him because He's just so very good.
ReplyDeleteIndeed, it is complicated. It is also personal. For those for whom it is not personal, there can be a desire to simplify this in theoretical terms. However, when one is considering the opportunity to experience love and companionship and family (this is about much more than an opportunity for sexual activity) we shouldn't shy away from the hard work of wrestling with the complexity.
ReplyDeleteSexuality impacts our sense of personhood in a manner that susceptibility to alcohol does not. The two are not parallel experiences - and when we try to make that parallel work, we minimize the reality that people actually experience.
You've said, "What's important is discovering what is pleasing to God and developing a relationship with Him that honestly compels you to want to please Him because He's just so very good." The reality is, that gay Christians across the spectrum of belief and practice may well agree with this statement - and yet have come to different conclusions about how this is practically worked out in their lives. Those who enter faithful partnerships do not do so despite believing it is sinful - they do so because they believe that God blesses their commitment to experience love and fidelity just as he does with heterosexual couples. Others may disagree with their conclusion - but they would view themselves as continuing to develop their relationship with God and continuing to feel compelled to please him with their lives. So fundamentally, within this complexity, people function within very different paradigms - but all testify to personal relationship with Christ, high regard for the Scriptures, and deep desire to live in a manner that is consistent with what God has called them to.
My best friend is gay. My brother in law died of aids. My wife's uncles all lived and died early deaths in a blaze of alcoholic destructiveness. I see it in one of my boys now. Everyday of my life is lived in the presence of the anxiety and depression inherited from both my mother and father. My God cares about this. It's all relevant to Him. But none of these challenges change what is true. To designate acceptableness based on how personal something is, or how painfully impactful an experience is falls into the realm of subjective relativism. I think that's where most liberal vs conservative dialogs breakdown - is there absolute truth or not? It is impossible for an honest self aware person to read scripture and come to the conclusion that embracing ssa is somehow pleasing to God. You have to reach really hard and squint, and surround yourself with people that do the same to maintain that illusion. Do I love my best friend? Absolutely! The best way to love my friend is to meet him where he is like God meets me. But it would be doing him an injustice to simply tell him what he wants to hear because I hate seeing him in pain.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the dialogue.
Thank you for sharing more of your experiences. It is certainly painful to see people struggle.
ReplyDeleteI'm not suggesting that the personal nature of a struggle is the determining factor in evaluating the morality of a given question. However, I think the idea of absolute truth is more of an inheritance from post-enlightenment modernity than it is from the invitation God extends to his people to engage his story in Scripture and to engage with him through prayer and the Holy Spirit given gift of discernment.
We see within Scripture that God seems to negotiate with humans (ie. Abraham pleading for Sodom), affirms their wrestling with him (ie. Jacob), invites people to new revelation (ie. Peter and the vision of unclean/clean food), extends grace to new groups (ie. the gentiles), indicates that we need the Holy Spirit to continue to discern the voice of Jesus (John 16:13), and provides guidance through the apostle Paul for Christians who disagree about matters (Romans 14).
The idea that Scripture does not raise paradox, tension, or at times seems to contradict itself is an unhelpful one. God revealed and continues to reveal himself through time and culture and history. He is not finished speaking.
And in the midst of this, very human people with differing backgrounds, gifts, levels of scholarship and expectations engage with the words of Scripture in search of God's heart. I think we need to be humble in our recognition that God is personal in his dealing with his children.
I am a woman in ministry - and I have brothers and sisters in Christ who deeply believe that I should not teach or preach. We differ on that question. But there is room in the economy of God's grace for us to extend humble honour to one another.
I think the best definition of truth that I have heard, at the Lausanne Congress in South Africa, was from a German theologian who lives in a very post-Christian and post-modern context (which is mainly the world in which I live)... He said that truth is a person - and his name is Jesus. And one thing I know for sure is that Jesus continues to reveal himself to our sisters and brothers in Christ who are gay.
I am arriving late to the conversation so perhaps those who were participating have already moved on. But here goes anyway. My main focus is on the identity imperative that I see several people are talking about. Let me give an example unique to my situation. I live in the United States. That makes me an American. Since I am on various blogs I get to talk to people arond the world .... And I am told that American evangelicalism is distinctive .. I am not sure if they mean it is 'good' distinctive or 'bad' distinctive .. I get the impression that it is the latter.
ReplyDeleteFurthermore .. America is not always perceived well in other parts of the word. Some look on us as morally decadent .. especially the more strict countries. And .. I believe .. that there are some Chrisitans in America that put being a citizen of America on higher footing than begin a citizen of the Kingdom of God.
So the above is a collection of some of the issues that surround identifying or describing one's self as an American. But guess what? I'm still an American. And I am a Christian. And I am a father. And I am a husband. Some peope may choose not to identify as an American for the reasons I outlined above. Some might choose to idenify as American regardless of the different perceptions I outlined above. And either view is fine.
What is not fine IMO is insisting that someone must or must not identify a certain way. That's really a personal choice. And . yes .. it is about authenticity .. about being authentic to yourself and how you put the pieces together in your own life.
The important thing (for those of us who identify as Christians) is putting Christ first in our lives. And one of the greatest gifts we can give one another is the opportunity to be able to let our hair down .. to be ourselves .. to express what is on our heart and mind without the fear of a reprimand because we somehow did not describe ourselves in an alleged morally correct way. May God give us the grace to do so. For this is the atmosphere where I have seen the greatest growth occur in people, regardless of who they are.
Blessings,
Dave