I am late entering the conversation around the Lisa Ling, Our America program entitled, “Pray Away the Gay?” If you haven't had the opportunity to view the program, you can view it here. The program created a buzz with a fair bit of controversy and criticism. At the risk that my weighing in is "old news", I have a few good reasons for my late entrance.
The program didn’t air in Canada so I had to wait for the online version. And unlike some folks who jumped the gun based solely on preview clips, I wanted to see the whole thing before articulating my reflections. Then when I did get the link I was on vacation – and my family rightly claimed my time and attention. But finally, I don’t tend to be a quick commenter. I like to allow things to ruminate for a while. I try to pull back to see some of the bigger picture and vicarious threads that become interwoven in the conversation that such a program is simply a catalyst for. In my experience, quick reactions just don’t make for good bridge-building as they inevitably carry more opinion than reflection. And bridging requires some quiet, prayerful reflection. Bridging invites one to quiet the din in one’s own mind and heart and strain to hear the still, small voice of the Spirit who is a trustworthy guide to extending humble respect and dignity across diversity. It takes some quietness and stillness because these conversations at the intersection of faith and sexuality are so complex. Our language needs to be both precise and poetic. What I mean by that is the necessity to ensure that parties across the conversation understand terms in a similar manner – that they aren’t talking apples and oranges inadvertently with one another – but that their conversation together is not so scientifically forensic that it lacks imagination and generosity. That’s where the poetry comes in. Conversation isn’t research (at least not first and foremost). Conversation is about relating, it is about seeing one another’s humanity, listening with a commitment to be fully present. It is connecting to our creativity in opening our minds (where we exercise our intellectual capacity), our souls (the seat of our emotions) and our spirit (where we hear the voice of God).
One of my primary observations is that anytime you tackle this complex of a topic in a one hour documentary (which is really only 42 minutes once you subtract the commercials – which my online version mercifully did), you can take one of two paths. The first path seeks to take a more general approach that introduces the topic to a broad audience. The second chooses one specific question and fleshes that out with the risk of losing some of the audience who lack the basic overview of the subject. Lisa Ling, understandably, attempted the former. The challenge is not having the time and space to ensure clarity in the tagline questions. The title of the program would suggest that Ling is wanting to discover whether or not sexual orientation can be influenced by spiritual intervention. This question is a legitimate one given the confusion of public messages from various sources. Rather than the black and white totalitarian question, “Can you pray the gay away?” exploration of the degree of influence spiritual intervention might have on sexual orientation could have been a helpful program. But, it isn’t a very marketable idea. Nuance rarely is. Rather, with the title as it was, the program invites unreflective polarity. Many will simply say, “of course not” – end of discussion. Others may feel forced to say – “yes” – even though they probably would want to offer a much more multi-faceted response than a simple closed-ended answer.
But the program also asked the question, “Can you be gay and be Christian?” At first blush, this may seem to simply be the other side of the same coin. But I would submit that these are two very different questions – and it comes down to a matter of language. I fear that without precision in our language, it will be very challenging to move forward in this conversation in a manner that embodies postures of peace-making.
I find myself increasingly agitated by the phrase, “homosexuality is a sin”. I am agitated because the concept presents itself as somehow being biblical – when it is quite frankly a projection upon the text. The bible never refers to homosexuality. Rather, it refers to behaviors. One might also argue that it addresses desires and/or temptations. I will accede to that ¬ - although I would suggest that when temptation / desires are mentioned in connection with same-sex behavior the texts are pointing to the arena of lust and not simply the presence of attraction. The bible never addresses same-sex attraction as an enduring reality and aspect of one’s sense of personhood in relation to the world of people and relationships. Likewise, the bible never addresses sexual orientation. Granted, these concepts weren’t part of the language of the day. But by the same token, one ought not to develop a position on the assumption from silence. Certainly, in the Genesis narrative, we see a picture of the first male and female. Again, however, while this describes an experience that if often viewed as normative, has been experienced by the majority, and may be described by many as God’s best, the text itself does not indicate that a variant or difference in experience ought to be viewed as inherently sinful. To assume this from the creation account again projects onto the text a prohibition that it does not specifically articulate. To imprint a sense of gender on God or to further impose an anthropomorphic image of heterosexual one flesh union on the character of God seems to me to be an additional assumption that is not clearly spelled out in the text. We, rather, need humbly confess that we lack the capacity to apprehend the fullness of who God is. We are his image bearers – not the other way around.
The other reality that must be considered is that the bible addresses sexual behavior (and it is hotly debated by scholars and laity alike just what sexual behavior is specifically identified) and lust in relation to same-sex sexuality – but it does not articulate a commentary on same sex relational love. This reinforces my contention that the bible does not address sexual orientation. Same-sex sexual orientation is not to be reduced to a set of sexual behaviors. Rather, when an individual experiences a predominant, persistent attraction to their own gender it is a multi-faceted, integrative experience in how they relate to both their own gender and the opposite gender. This is true for those who are heterosexually oriented as well. Heterosexuality is more than just sexual behavior associated with the opposite sex. So too, homosexuality is more than just sexual behavior with the same sex. Homosexuality ought not be reduced to fantasized or actual genitalized sex acts any more than heterosexuality should.
Additionally, one does need to consider what the biblical narrative actually says about same-sex intimate (non-consummated) love. I invite correction, but given my annual reading through of scripture over the last number of years, I am unaware of any negative story about same-sex relational love. What we do have are incredibly positive accounts of love between David and Jonathon and Ruth and Naomi. I don’t think one can assume consummated relationships in either account, but the reality of intimate relationship cannot be disputed. To assume that same-sex attracted people must guard themselves from experiencing intimacy in same-sex relationships (for the time being, the question of sexual behavior is set aside) as an essential aspect of the journey towards diminishing the reality of their same-sex attractions is not something prescribed in scripture – and, in my observation, not even described in scripture.
I say all of this because I think it unhelpful to get in a pissing match over whether being gay is a sin, if one understands the word gay to mean attracted/oriented to the same sex and desiring to most intimately relate to a companion of the same-sex. So when generalized statements are made like, “Can you be gay and Christian?” I want to pull my hair out. Of course you can be gay and be a Christian. The fact that our popular media is still asking this question proves the abysmal job the church has done in communicating a doctrine of justification that is truly consistent with the life, death, and resurrection of Christ and his gift of faith, mercy and grace to those who turn to him.
The significant questions – and the ones I wish Lisa Ling had attempted to tackle are these:
1. Why would someone not want to be same-sex attracted? This, then, is an open ended question that addresses intentions, motivations, attitudes, fears, acceptance, shame etc. rather than a closed ended question like “can you pray the gay away?” or “can you be gay and a Christian?”
2. Why are some Christians who experience same-sex attraction convicted that:
a. they should seek to express themselves relationally and sexually as a heterosexual despite the likely potential of lingering / residual / dominant same-sex attractions
b. or they should accept the reality of their same-sex attractions but live a life of mastery and abstention from sexual behavior
c. or they should receive and celebrate their same-sex attraction as a unique gift from God that invites them to experience intimacy and fidelity within the same godly boundaries as any other human being regardless of gender.
3. What causes such different experiences of biblical conviction? How do these convictions play out in the commitments and relationships of different individuals?
I think these questions would have had the potential to highlight the spectrum of diverse experiences of same-sex attracted Christians with the kind of objectivity that Lisa Ling seemed to be striving for.
Instead, with the snap shot of people presented in the program, viewers were at a loss to really understand the complexity and diverse experiences of authenticity of same-sex attracted Christians. Motivations could not be fully explored in the time allotment. How much did fear play a role? Shame? Where were various people at in the journey to self-acceptance? What was their view of God? How did they understand the bible? All of these things would have been helpful to explore. But ….. such things probably don’t boost television ratings, don’t create catchy tag-lines, and don’t fit in 42 minutes of costly on air time.
I know Alan and Leslie Chambers personally. I’ve seen them together and with their kids. I know they love each other and love being parents. I have zero reason to question or judge the depth of their love, their commitment to each other and their family. I know they view their life as a gift of grace – and frankly – any loving family should receive that reality as a gift of grace. Alan happens to be in the spotlight – some would call him a professional ex-gay. But I know lots of men like Alan who aren’t in the spotlight what-so-ever. They are honest with their spouses, with close friends, confidantes, accountability partners etc. They are same-sex attracted – but are deeply committed to their wives and children. They shape their lives around their commitments to God and their family. Are they living a lie – or are they living the life they want to live in a manner that is consistent with their convictions and commitments? I would suggest that for many it is the latter.
The huge challenge is that I also know many fractured families and deeply distressed individuals. In these cases, despite filial love, Christian commitment, and prayerful motivation, life in a mixed orientation marriage was not sustainable. I have heard the heart-break, the agonized wrestling, the deep grief and disappointment, the shattered dreams. And I will not sit in any judgment seat that presumes to measure whether they tried hard enough or in the right way. That is God’s privileged place and his alone.
I was concerned in listening to both Janet and Christian on the program of their desire to be married to someone of the opposite sex – in how self-centric their focus seemed to be. While Lisa Ling asked about whether they thought they could be attracted to the opposite sex – she did not ask whether they considered what a potential spouse would deserve. Christian marriage isn’t about what an individual wants – it is about what they can give. I’ve had too many straight spouses in my office weeping, feeling the emptiness of not being fully loved or desired to ever recommend mixed orientation marriage. So while I encourage the people I know who are deeply invested and making a healthy and meaningful go of marriage and family with an opposite gender spouse – it seems to me to be like playing Russian roulette with the life of another when you’re in the shoes of someone like Christian expressing that you really want that even though you’re totally into the same sex.
What the program and many of the programs featured on the program seem to fail to take into consideration is what I might describe as different homosexualities. For those who have walked away from a promiscuous or superficial experience attempting to live out their same-sex sexuality and who now find congruence in living their Christian faith in marriage to an opposite gender spouse, I gently admonish them to be careful not to project their experience on every individual. Their testimony is their testimony. No one can step inside their skin and judge the authenticity of their story. But, by the same token, they cannot crawl into anyone else’s skin and expect their journey to travel the exact same path. Those who never sought escape in sexual behavior or addiction, who took the time and space in their life to wrestle with scripture during the course of their spiritual formation, who went through the trials of self-acceptance, and believe that to live honestly and authentically as a same-sex attracted is not inconsistent with God’s call on their life, also have the gift of owning their testimony. To assume that if one is content with the reality of their same-sex attraction, recognizes it as part of their identity, then “gay comes first and takes center stage” fails to embody a posture of humble listening and honouring each unique individual. Most people I know who are comfortable identifying as gay Christians will readily attest to their faith as the primary center of their identity. Their confidence and security lies in being the Beloved of God.
The idea that identity connected with an honest and authentic acceptance of the enduring reality of same-sex attraction is less than God’s best is I believe yet another projection on the text of scripture. If an individual chooses to not include their experience of same-sex attraction (to whatever degree they experience it) as part of their self-identification, that is completely within their prerogative. However, to suggest that such honest identification is less than God’s best for every individual would seem to “tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.” While scripture does articulate the gift of hope in the verse that anyone who is in Christ is a new creation, this verse ought not be exegeted to assume that means that all identities other than that of follower of Christ are obliterated. So while indeed identity matters, given that scripture does not directly address attraction or orientation, it is not clearly spelled out in scripture that one ought not to honestly live as a gay Christian.
These are some of the nuances that I would have appreciated seeing come through in Lisa Ling’s program – though I am sympathetic to the realities of television, marketing, and communicating with a diverse and generally ill-informed audience.
-WG
Wendy, your comments are always worth waiting for. This one was exceptional. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteI appreciated hearing from your perspective. There are points to where we disagree in theology. As God's Image bearers gender identity plays a significant part to who we are as gendered people, as male and female being created in God's Image. People with a post gay biblical view of scripture are not impossing their identity onto God but rather take a look at the scripture that says, He created male and female in His Image in His Image male and female...there is an emphasis on gender being included in reference to being created in God's Image and God bringing male and female together in a complimentary way that cannot be expressed by male male or female female relationships.
ReplyDeleteIn some parts of your blog posting you lost me along the way and this is not the first time. It's not because I tend to disagree with your theology but because of the language that you use and the fact that the language used seem to be Seminary level. Not all of your reader /audience have a Masters degree and I thought I'd say something so that maybe you could keep in mind that you do speak/write over the heads of some people
I have problems with ADD and dyslexia. On a good day I can read through your posts but often times I have to take a break half way through because my brain kicks into over drive :-D
As mentioned, I appreciated hearing from your perspective.
ReplyDeleteFrom my understanding it would appear, based on some of your comments and questions that would have been good for Lisa Ling to ask. I haven't watched the video so I can't have an oppinion on the show itself but I have heard from friends that it was to the best of her ability an unbiased presentation within the limited time given for such a complex issue. I find it ironic that a pro gay journalist would have to face gay activists who are wanting her to cut the program. It would appear to me based upon what I read on your blog and my own personal experience that you'd be disregarding my unique challenges and undermining my own personal challenges with regards to SSA and my response because I never entered into a lesbian relationship. I'm one of the first people to be empathic and to actualy acknowledge that the journey I am on is hard enough, how much more for somebody who's been involved in a same sex relationship? You are absolutely right, my experience is my own experience, this is my choice and I should be offered every opportunity to seek out resources and help from folks that enable me to walk out my faith and to live my life that is congruent to my best understanding of scripture.
Based upon what you've written I can safely assume you'd caution me in my pursuit of a heterosexual relationship and would also like to perhaps ask me what motivates me towards wanting a heterosexual relationship/ marraige when I am predominatly same sex attracted?
I would also like to create dialogue around the term gay and using it as a way of describing one self, if it's just a descriptive word why then do some Christians call themself a gay christian why not just a christian who's experiencing SSA? It seems to me that the emphasis on calling one self gay does bring question to and suggest that being gay is just as much apart of their identity as much as being a child of God. I am a child of God period, I am a woman created in God's Image who happens to be experiencing SSA and who is on a journey discovering what it means to be a woman and what it means to be female and feminine and how God created female in His Image and what that means within the context of the complimemtary role in relationship to man/the other...
What motivates me towards heterosexual relationship/marraige when I am predominently SSA? I'll respond to that in another comment.
Actualy, it's more of the case of new desires that have emerged as I have deepened my relationship and have dealt with past trauma I am finding that these new desires are emerging. I for one would soon rather encourage a person who is SSA to pursue a relationship with Jesus not the changing of a persons sexual orientation...in other words the journey is not about going from gay to straight though many on this journey may experience a shift within their attractions making heterosexual relationship possible within somebody's homosexual struggle.
ReplyDeleteI would soon rather choose to be celibate before forcing myself into a relationship with somebody I'm not drawn towards. I've been on this journey and single for at least 18 years. My views and responses over the years have changed and have been shaped. I don't regret remaining single when I could have had a traditional coming out journey and entered fully into the lesbian/trans world. Instead I chose to allow God my Father to name and affirm me, that eventualy created an opportunity to foster new desires that came not because of manipulation but just the grace of God and His work in me.
Our motivation should not be for anything or anyone but Jesus. It seems to, in using your terminology, a mixed orientated relationship will not be all that successful if we're using that marraige to force ourselves into becoming straight. It shouldn't be forced it should be natural.
Sarah – the intention of this blog is not to disregard or undermine anyone’s journey. In my writing, I describe and share my reflections. No matter how long my posts get (and I know they are sometimes very long)¸I will not be able to describe every possible scenario that people are navigating. Your journey is your journey. You seem to be very committed in your relationship with Jesus and I celebrate that. You are quite welcome to identify yourself as you wish and live out your discipleship in line with your convictions. This blog is not about trying to convince you otherwise.
ReplyDeleteYou are right that if we were in personal contact and you asked my opinion on pursuing a heterosexual marriage I might well express caution. It would absolutely be your prerogative to disregard my opinion and seek the opinion of others who have gone down that path. As I’ve said many times, I know people who experience same-sex attraction who are committed and invested in marriage to an opposite gender spouse and experiencing a meaningful life. But I’ve seen too many trainwrecks to recommend that route to those considering that path. I also really wonder for some ssa people if they really consider what the marriage experience will be like for their spouse – it isn’t just a matter of whether they are ready – it is a matter of whether they can give what an opposite gender spouse deserves in marriage. If someone pursues it anyway, I would certainly seek to be of encouragement and support to them in their life.
As for the word gay – you are very welcome to your thoughts and ideas about its usage. I’ve put my thoughts out there. We seem to differ in our reflections. And again, I honour your choice to not use this word to describe your reality. I would not be comfortable, however, with any sense of trying to impose that choice on others. I’m not suggesting that is what you’re doing. But when you say you want to dialogue about it – it seems like you want to prove that your choice is the best -and perhaps the only appropriate way – for a follower of Jesus to navigate these realities.
At the end of the day, I am merely a mainly straight, married mom sharing my observations, experiences and reflections. I am not living inside the skin of a person who experiences same-sex attraction. But even a same-sex attracted person is not living inside the skin of another same-sex attracted person. That means we need to give each other space. It means we need to be generous with one another. It often seems Sarah that you question whether there is space for you here at this blog. There certainly is – even if I don’t agree with some of your ideas or conclusions. The biggest priority for me is that this is a space where exploration and growth in faith in Christ is nurtured. For those who come to this blog who disagree with me, my concern is not that they will agree with me – but that they will be encouraged to press into Christ. If my reflections cause someone such concern that they need to turn to Christ for reassurance, comfort, clarity etc. then I am glad for they have gone to the right place. If my reflections cause someone to ask different questions and explore different ideas – I would absolutely pray that they do so at the foot of the cross in complete dependence on the Spirit of Christ to lead them into all truth. Agree or disagree, I hope every reader of this blog will look to Jesus and grow in trusting him. Not everyone will. I respect that we have readers who do not identify as followers of Jesus. They are welcome here – because that is the spirit of Jesus – to welcome all. And I am grateful for the ways our non-Christian readers challenge and make me think.
Wendy thanks for sharing your thoughts about my motives. I'm kinda friends with Beth and had been involved with Jacob's Well you could probably get a different perspective about what I'm like through her ;)
ReplyDeleteI don't demand people to follow what I believe nor do I expect that my experience will be everyone's experience. Apart of understanding what another person believes does involve sharing what the other believes. I state my opinions knowing that others can challenge me on my thinking, one can't possibly learn without engaging from within our world view. How can a person correct me in my thinking if I never express my thinking and vise versa? You blog your opinions and strong convictions and we all, everyone of us engages from our strong convictions. It's just that some strong convictions are more socialy accepted, disputable matter is a strong opinion and conviction it's just not my strong opinion and conviction. With all that said and done if I didn't have the patients to engage with people who have a different world view then I probably do the drive by comment after skimming through your blog post but the fact that I actualy read your blog and attempt to engage should say something.
I certainly don't throw the baby out with the bath water. I do have gay identified friends some who are not Christian and some who are. I'm not the one who debates on somebody elses faith or the one who judges it. In fact I'm one of the first to encourges a personal relationship with Jesus. My relationship with Jesus began years before I began a post gay journey.
Recently a gay identified friend of mine cornered me and asked "am I going to hell because I'm gay?" he was ready to slap me silly because he knows my convictions and my response was not what he'd expect... I said, you wouldn't go to hell because you're gay. You'd be going to hell because you don't know Jesus who loves you and died for you." It gave me oportunity to share with him my journey and also to bring clarity to what the journey out of homosexuality is which is important to share since there is much confusion around it.
If being in what you'd refer to as a mixed orientated relationship/marriage were to ever be possible I couldn't ignore any of the challenges for me and him and I for one wouldn't want to get married to anyone who's not commited so he'd have to know what he's signing up for and it obviously would then not be my struggle but our struggle. The problem comes when one partner neglects to be open about their personal struggles . I'd hate to wake up next to a man I thought I married only to find out he's not the man I married so I'd rather be open and honest about myself so that he know's and weighed in everything. I've heard many times that marriage is not to make you happy it is to make you holy and marriage is not a walk in the park and a vacation from reality but rather it may expose our weaknesses and provide oportunity to be refined. That's what I heard so my expectation is not a fairy tale.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteFor my journey, the term gay is quite adequate. Most people know what that means. SSA is really a term only used by the 'in-crowd' of Christians ... and, even then, there are some stares as to what you mean.
ReplyDeleteHomosexual is also quite fine with me. My opinion only, but I find the terms ex-gay, post-gay just another form of the closet. Choose the door of your choice, just make sure you hide.
This is not to be an offense toward Sarah. It's simply my reality and understanding.
Gay for so many people means perverted, deviant, disordered ... and, gee, who would want to be that; so, let's make sure people think we're not that ... so, we make up cutesy terms to hide ourselves.
Same-sex attracted, also, kind of makes me laugh in the fact that str8 people who have friends of the same gender are same-sex attracted. They're attracted by their friends' sense of humor, knowledge, hobbies, etc.
Anyhow, I don't mind what homosexuals call themselves. It's their story, their life, their journey ... and, if some homosexuals need to try and 'pray away the gay', that's quite OK, too.
Hey Rob,
ReplyDeleteI have found in my understanding, it do be more biblical to identify with who God created us to be. Gender identity as man/woman male/female is an integral part to our identity where as I don't believe that it is biblical to identify one self as gay or straight for that matter.
I used to identify as transgender and for me to feel comfortable in my own skin having been created a woman and to no longer reject my feminity is huge!
It is true we do identify ourself with something and I'd rather identify myself in Christ not in my fallen nature and so ssa is an experience not an identity. I wasn't born gay therefore it's learned behavior and if it's learned behavior I can submit my learned behavior at the cross of Jesus who has made all things new including me if I truly am a new creation in Christ and who has become a dwelling place for God's Holy Spirit, the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead. And it just so happens that as I've submitted my learned behavior and desires at the cross of Jesus I have learned new behavior and have to see new desires emerge...but of course this is my experience.
Sarah - I'm not sure what you mean when you suggest I've commented on your motives. This is one of the challenges of online communication I suppose. Sometimes we miss another's intentions.
ReplyDeleteRob - It is interesting that you would share that - in my experience I've encountered a fair number of people who for a season (and sometimes a lengthy season) utilized what I might call "exodus-speak" but who moved towards a more common language usage to describe their experiences and to relate to people outside of the often-insider world of evangelical ministries to those 'struggling' with their sexuality.
Teresa - thanks for your generous comment :) Extending space to one another is so important.
Sarah,
ReplyDeleteI hope you construe your experience of 'not being born gay', 'gay as being a learned behavior' as your own experience? It is, indeed, wonderful that you are experiencing 'change' in a way that is meaningful for you.
There are those of us who have entirely different experiences in that area. I can only hope you don't shut us out. Shutting us out doesn't just mean not listening; it can, also, mean listening with a closed mind, with a pre-determined view ... extending that view, maybe not vocally, but in the conversation in our own heads. Walking away from persons without having been at all with those persons in their space.
We all do this. It's the job of the Holy Spirit to help us out of that judgmental spot, I think. This is not meant to chide, but only sharing my experience of being a non-listener, while seeming to listen.
The following is from a Civil War Blog I follow, and exemplifies what I think Wendy is trying to accomplish here: (BTW, Civil War discussion can end up far from being 'civil').
"I sometimes wonder if this forum truly deserves you.
Thank you for such a measured, reasoned, well thought-out post. Again.
Sincerely,
..."
"I could say the same about you and many other members of this forum. When there is no storm in the tea cup, per se--what wonderful, respectful, reflective and blooming in full color and height--every individual's thoughts, comments, opinions and the thirst for understanding one another's view's, cultures and the attempt to see through another's eyes.
The strength comes from all of us--not some of us. This is where CWT can excel and do hope that more will add to the luster and reputation of a meaningful and educational reward here.
Quote Originally Posted by ..."
Hi Wendy,
ReplyDeleteHere's a quote I was referring to...
"I’m not suggesting that is what you’re doing. But when you say you want to dialogue about it – it seems like you want to prove that your choice is the best -and perhaps the only appropriate way – for a follower of Jesus to navigate these realities."
I've been trying to keep my comments short ... apart of bridging is actually meeting the other in our differences, in our differences of opinions, our differences in experiences, we share our opinions and views, to hear from the other, to see the other ...
Quite often I speak of a shared humanity. We all share in humanity as flawed and fallen as it is, as we are, we share in our humanity and when God said, For God so loved the world He didn't exclude the homosexual in His absolute love for humanity. I only attempted to clarify that I don't impose my reality and experiences onto other people as if my experiences and reality has to be their experience and reality. I became a Christian long before I began the post gay journey so that pretty much tells me that to debate about the legitimacy of one's relationship with Jesus is counter productive to the Kingdom of God, His work in the lives of men and women He created who have a calling, destiny, and purpose in Christ.
You also said ...
"It often seems Sarah that you question whether there is space for you here at this blog. There certainly is – even if I don’t agree with some of your ideas or conclusions."
Thank you for welcoming me here on your blog and for giving me space here. I never did question whether or not I had space here. Sometimes it seems though when some folks want to bridge then expect me to cross right completely over while I ask how we can meet in the middle and so far I haven't heard a satisfactory response to that question because it seems as though I have to call myself gay and disregard my own personal testimony and experience in order to "bridge"...
Again, I'm always on here with one main question ... in bridging... how can we meet in the middle without compromising our moral convictions or disregarding our own personal testimony and experiences.
In dialogue or conversation I share my opinions and I may even ask questions that really could start a debate because the very questions and statements may challenge our core belief system. At the same time, I ask questions or state my opinions because I come with my world view and experiences like every one else and so I engage here because it challenges me in my core beliefs and I state what I do so that hopefully, if I am wrong in my thinking may enable me to see differently or maybe my core beliefs are strengthened ... so really everything I say and do is more of the attempt to invite people to enable me to see different, it's in that dialogue I learn.. it's not a debate for the sake of a debate, it to see and hear the other and to learn from them. I don't know, maybe people are so used to fighting and debating from the place of ignorance and hurt that the way I engage is misunderstood.
Teresa I really appreciate your input here on this blog ...
ReplyDeleteYou said ...
"SSA is really a term only used by the 'in-crowd' of Christians"
I really don't see that as the case at all but rather it's the best words that many of us can use to describe while maintaining continuity within our convictions and remaining true to who we are in light of our experiences.
Another quote,
"I hope you construe your experience of 'not being born gay', 'gay as being a learned behavior' as your own experience?"
It's all been learned behavior for me, the false masculine appearance and behavior as well as the posturing I did when I lived more like a transgendered individual. I'm no longer transgendered. I used to be transgendered and now I can safely say with conviction that I feel like a woman, I feel content in the skin of a woman, and I feel a sense of true femininity emerging in ways I never thought possible. To feel trapped within my own body is now a foreign concept, to relate as a man is a foreign concept to me and while not too long ago I saw myself different from every other woman and connected with the guys as one of the guys. I live as a woman today and I'm not comfortable living as a man though I used to live as a man. Are there still residual affects, well ... I'm not a stereotypical girl and most people when they see me think I'm a "flaming homo" or "dyke" that's how others label me ... but at the same time most of my closest friends and family who knew me before will say I am not the same person I used to be and there is a continual softening that is coming with my emerging femininity ... as the real me emerges I don't feel the need to fight, to cover up, to protect myself and have come to being ok with weaknesses and vulnerabilities. All of that has been for me learned behavior. Of course that's my experience.
And then in your second comment,
"Homosexual is also quite fine with me. My opinion only, but I find the terms ex-gay, post-gay just another form of the closet.Choose the door of your choice, just make sure you hide....This is not to be an offense toward Sarah. It's simply my reality and understanding."
I'm not taking your opinions Teresa as an offense by any means. I'm not easily offended. Diversity and Tolerance are two core values of mine. It's how you see it but it might not be the reality of many who choose to use these terms.
There are many masks that we can hide behind and being a good Christian can be just as much a mask as any other mask but I couldn't be more true to who I am today unlike a few years ago as a transgendered in a false masculine identity.. that wasn't who I am. Today the real me is emerging.
I don't like the term ex-gay for myself since it doesn't really communicate truthfully my experience and reality. Using the term post gay is more suitable but it is in reference to a gay identity vs the new identity in Christ ... beyond the gay identity, beyond the labeling and beyond identifying myself from the place of fallen humanity and identifying with Christ.. who am I in Christ? Well, I'm certainly not straight but I'm not gay either I have a post gay biblical world view and identify in Christ, a woman created in the Image of God.
It can't be hiding if I am talking about the reality of my struggles and weaknesses. In fact, this Sunday I will be sharing my testimony at church. I won't be sharing from a testimony of going from gay to straight but rather God's presence in the midst of my struggles and wrestling with the realities of my faith and sexuality, to share how God has met me in my struggles and weaknesses, and how God has met with me in the reality of my homosexuality. This is the farthest thing from hiding in a closet of any sort.
And then finaly you said,
"I can only hope you don't shut us out."
I don't.
Sarah,
ReplyDeleteThis has been a wonderful exchange with you. I appreciate your willingness to share and your thoughtful response. I, also, give thanks to the Holy Spirit for allowing me the opportunity to listen to you ... to let my defenses down to hear your story.
I don't see my homosexuality as learned behavior; but, at this stage, for me, I've given up "hunting the acorn", so-to-speak. It's immaterial to me ... it is, what it is; and, I'm trying to respond to what Our Lord wants from me.
I understand quite a bit about your journey into the feminine. Much of my understanding of being a woman was very head-based, and hadn't reached my heart, if you can understand that. I get very much the complementarity and goodness of male/female. That is why I have chosen a life of chastity, for myself.
This past year has been quite a revelation to me as I've fallen in love with the wonders of babies. Previously, I was indifferent, or could care less about them. Now, I'm simply enchanted with babies, toddlers, children ... and, wa-la, I'm seeing the glory of motherhood, maternity, etc. What a phenomenal thing to be a mother, as I suppose Wendy could tell us.
For all this that the Holy Spirit is working in me, I'm still a homosexual. I've turned my sexuality over to Our Lord, and will go where that leads me, as before.
I'm delighted, Sarah, to have made your virtual acquaintance. I wish you continued growth in your journey.
Thank you, Wendy, for your blog and the opportunity to 'listen' to others; to let down our defenses to allow others in. I appreciate it.
Sarah - I suppose I would differentiate between motives and intentions. Motives would be what drives a person to think and do certain things. Intentions are what you are trying to accomplish. I made some observations of what I perceived to be your intentions in communicating - but readily admit that my perceptions may be incomplete given the limitations of this form of written communication where body language and intonation are missing.
ReplyDeleteI think I've been clear, but I'll reiterate, that you do not need to use the word gay to describe your personal reality to be part of this conversation or to offer your contribution to bridging. I will say, however, that I think making statements about why you think identifying as gay isn't a good choice can be alienating to others. Bridging is, I think enhanced when there is a willingness to use common language. And even if one doesn't personally use such language, demonstrating an understanding and acceptance of why others would choose to use it.
I suppose a term that might be helpful here is that I think bridging is best attempted from a commitment to not try to proselytize others. This is challenging to do when you come from an environment like the Evangelical community that trains you to proselytize on the basis of your beliefs and convictions. That is the whole point of evangelism. Bridging, however, is not evangelism. Bridging isn't about trying to convert anyone to a set of beliefs or ideas. In my mind, it is about creating a space in which ideas can be shared, listened to with respect, so that an individual can experience acceptance even in the midst of disagreement. I'm not sure that bridging is about meeting in the middle - that sounds like somehow people need to compromise what they believe. I don't see bridging that way. Bridging, to me, is about the interpersonal connection, valuing each other, honouring one another, extending dignity to one another, perhaps despite differences in our beliefs and convictions.
So thanks for engaging this conversation with as much passion and interest as you do. And we'll try to keep working through some of the limitations of online communication.
Wendy,
ReplyDeleteThis exchange has really altered my perspective. I need to re-read over-and-over your explanation about bridging vs. proselytizing. I see I proselytize often without even realizing it ... or, even, trying to defend myself in the midst of trying to listen; so, I'm readying my response, talking in my head, my side of the story, my view ... how you're wrong and I'm right ... how you're out and I'm in ... how you're bad and I'm good.
The "you're" above, Wendy, didn't mean you ... it was a generic for dialog in general. I'm sure you understood that.
Gosh, this bridging is hard. I feel defenseless and vulnerable. I feel threatened without someplace to protect myself.
Teresa - you've made a very valuable observation. Bridging is very much incarnational - and if you look at the incarnation from the perspective of Phil. 2 - you will see that it is about emptying oneself. I've been preaching on the power of powerlessness lately - and still need to turn that into a blog post. But it is true that one can feel defenseless and powerless. The good thing, is that this is the strategy that God employed through Christ. The good thing is that Jesus modelled for us how to do that with love and courage. Jesus reminds us to "fear not". To drop our defenses is a huge thing, a difficult thing .... but when we do incredible things can happen. Part of choosing the incarnational way of powerlessness is to choose to not be offended, to not make assumptions that personalize what others have said, to be willing to be misunderstood without always trying to set the record straight (there is a time for clarification of course - but that is different than defending oneself - which can inevitably miscommunicate or alienate others). This is the path of incarnation - and it leads to the cross. It is painful, difficult and requires that we find our security in Christ, that we learn to trust him more deeply, that we do not look to other people for our affirmation. This posture is difficult - but it does allow us to be loving, humble and gentle with others - even those who think and believe differently than we do.
ReplyDeleteI should add, I am not against evangelism. Clearly, there are right times and places to share the gospel in a way that invites and welcomes people to engage the good news for themselves personally. I do think that evangelism is most effective through the context of embodied and lived experience through relationship. Or to put it more simply - by example rather than rhetoric. In this sense, bridging does present a Christ-like posture that could intrigue someone to ask further about why one would be willing to assume a posture of powerlessness. So there is some interconnection. But, evangelism as it might be practised in modernity-shaped apologetic discourse is not only not particularly helpful in bridge-building - I'm not convinced in our current context is that fruitful in actually engaging people with the good news.
part 2 will continue.....
part 2 .....
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, for many of us, this evangelistic style of living our faith has so permeated how we interact with people that we unwittingly continue to perpetuate the "us and them" "in vs. out" attitudes and mentalities. I am seeking to engage in a different manner. But old habits can be hard to break. I know I find that at times. Certain styles of communication make me feel more defensive than others. Certain attitudes trigger fear or anger in me. But I keep pressing in to Christ to learn more deeply how to release those things at the foot of the cross and respond with gentleness and kindness and self-control - all the fruits of the Spirit. The odd thing to me is that there are people who assume that I am embodying this posture of bridge-building because I don't want to offend people - because I'm afraid to speak the truth - because I've adopted all grace with no truth. In actuality, I embody this posture because I believe it is the way of Jesus. And the truth is, it is difficult, painful at times, and costly. But I truly believe that it is most consistent with the character of Christ. I think there are times it would take a lot less effort to simply offend someone I disagree with under the guise of truth than to do the hard work of bridging. It doesn't take much spiritual maturity to fly off the handle and throw out absolute dismissals of others. Just look at the controversy over Rob Bell and the question of hell that is dominating the internet these days. There are some very unChristlike responses IMHO from Christians to a question that is clearly challenging, complex, and deeply threatening to many. Not so different from the conversation we seek to engage here. How I wish there were more measured, thoughtful, gracious and gentle responses that characterized Christians in these public conversations and debates. I hope we can model that here at BTG.
For myself, a gay ex-born again, evangelism is one of the major factors that led to my atheism and remains the primary reason for my current aversion to all things Christian. It's not just the Christians who think I'm going to hell for being gay that anger me, it's any Christian who thinks I'm going to hell for any reason whatsoever. That's what makes me want to pull out my hair (oh, wait, old bald guy, too late).
ReplyDeleteThe doctrine is so off-putting to me, and has been thrown at me so often in my life that I really can't hear anything else once hell comes into the conversation. Even if the speaker does not intend it that way, what hell communicates to me is that dialogue is not happening, that the conversation is one-sided, that I am not going to be heard, truly valued, and that ultimately my opinions / experience / journey are of no interest to the speaker. That the value and beauty of my life will not be appreciated.
Sigh. I REALLY hate hell. And by extension, I also loathe evangelism, since it seems to be so often predicated on hell.
What sets Wendy apart from the typical evangelical of my experience is that she is more likely to share a meditation about some behavior, attitude or way of relating to people that she feels is Christ-like than to suggest what about me is so wrong that I deserve to go to hell.
ReplyDeleteI'm more likely to listen to Wendy.
She might believe I'm going to hell, but at least she has had the grace not to say so. I'm not going to ask her because quite frankly, it will be easier for me to continue listening to her if I don't know.
Not that I believe in heaven or hell, or any sort of after life. Hell colors my perception of how receptive a person is to me.
Brian - you might be very fascinated by Rob Bell's new book called, Love Wins. I haven't had a chance to read it yet - but he addresses the topic of hell in a manner that has gotten a lot of traditional evangelicals VERY upset. If you google Rob Bell and hell - you'll come across his promo video for the book - which I think you'd find very interesting. :)
ReplyDeleteHi Brian:
ReplyDeleteThanks for sharing about your journey and your aversion to all things Christian. I'm a follower of Jesus and I also hate hell.
Even though the implied message I got growing up in church is that people go to hell for being gay, I don't believe it anymore (though I used to). I also do not believe that people are going to hell in general... because it is inconsistent with a God of love that millions and billions of people whom he created would end up in hell. Somehow or other, in this life or the next, people will be able to see who God really is and then decide whether or not they want to be with him. If God is a loving Father, if he welcomes the prodigal back with open arms, I can't see it being otherwise.
I know many in my church would disagree -- and be quick to apply hell to people like us whom they do not like or understand. I'm sorry that this has been your experience too. Even if hell were true (viz., in the way that most evangelicals present it), using the threat of hell to convince people to follow Jesus is not respectful and produces people who say yes to God with their mouths and perhaps follow the right rules, but whose hearts have not grasped God's immense love for them -- his love for them no matter what. Isn't his love big enough and amazing enough all by itself? Perhaps what's missing is a consistent reflecting of this love by his followers....
You are precious, Brian. I don't know you but I do know that your life has worth and beauty. Everything good is from our heavenly father and God doesn't play favourites when it comes to loving people -- so consider yourself a well-loved atheist.
Omigosh. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. YES!!!!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteYes.
Precisely.
Near the end of the video he says "what we believe about heaven and hell is incredibly important because it exposes what we believe about who God is and what God is like."
Well, yes. For decades I have been saying that hell makes God the Ultimate Cosmic Bully. "Believe or be tortured forever." ugh.
And you can be sure that the people in my life who told me I was going to hell most certainly did not have the kind of conversations with me like the kind above between Sarah and Teresa. There was no recognition of my journey unique to me, that it was for me to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling (which I am using as a metaphor for finding my own path as an out and self-actualizing gay man), so to speak, without judgment, interference and harassment.
Thanks for the link, Wendy!
Teresa,
ReplyDeleteThanks for engaging with me I can see that in many ways our journey is the same. Thanks for being vulnerable here. I appreciate you as a person as well as your own personal journey.
Wendy, our beliefs and core values are what shape and influence us. Because I shared my opinions it opened up a conversation with Teresa and we were able to connect and relate to each other on many different levels and I can see that there may be some things we might see differently on but I know her heart, her journey, her beliefs...not much divides her and I. Without engaging in the way that comes natural to me there came some great bridging that otherwise wouldn't have happened. My engaging here is not even close to evangelism but rather an attempt to get to know ppl and be known.
At the end of the day I learned a great deal about a persons journey.
Thanks Teresa for sharing and I pray God to continue to strengthen you in your journey with the Lord.
Hi RobG,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your kind words. Yes, I'm feeling the love!
You wrote: "Isn't his love big enough and amazing enough all by itself? Perhaps what's missing is a consistent reflecting of this love by his followers...."
I would leave out the "perhaps."
Something I wish Christians (in general) understood is that from my perspective they own all the opinions they assign to God. There is no God, therefore what you say God says about me is what YOU say about me. I can't think of anything more infuriating than the kind of Christian who will tell me why I'm going to hell, then sidestep and say it's not their opinion, it's God's... so I shouldn't get mad at them for being the messenger.
Which is why I liked Rob Bell's statement quoted above. I might re-word it to something like "what we believe about heaven and hell is incredibly important because it exposes what we believe about our fellow human beings and to what extent we truly respect them."
I might even add something about having humility enough to learn from another's journey without feeling compelled to insist they adopt our own - a theme I'm happy to hear in Wendy's posts.
Post part 1..
ReplyDeleteExcellent post and commentary. I really liked your distinction between evangelism/ proselytizing and bridging. That helped to articulate the often unspoken message that some people may send who are claiming to bridge but are actually proselytizing.
I also wanted to say a word about one specific problem that can effect what we term a mixed orientation marriage. I am by no means an expert here. I am straight and am married to a straight woman. However I sat in on a support group meeting / session for mixed orientation marriage couples. The person who was sharing was the straight wife who had been in such a marriage. Actually their marriage was no longer.. they had divorced and although they loved each other still they had together made the decision to end the marriage. Their parting had been accomplished more graciously then others who have taken this direction. Her and her husband ha entered the marriage without an understanding of what his SSA meant. She described how the lack of intimacy had really affected her perception of herself as a woman. Intimacy here is more than just having sex .. it is the intimate sharing and joy of physical closeness with each other. But when she sought that closeness beyond just the sexual part she had found her husband pulled away (even though they loved each other) And this .. as I said previously, harshly affected her image of herself as a desirable woman (spiritually, emotionally, physically). This is some of the pain that the straight spouse may experience in this kind of marriage. I had only viewed this as something the straight female spouse would perceive. However when I shared elements of this with a group of (to my knowledge) straight Christians that I lead .. one of them (a straight guy) had a very unique response to it. He shared how he had been in a marriage that had ended and later discovered his former wife was gay. .. What I had shard somehow resonated with him in one of those ‘Ah ha’ moments which he chose not to expand on. Since then, I have heard similar stories from folks who were at one time in mixed orientation marriages who now identify as gay. So it seems that this intimacy disconnect in a mixed orientation marriage is a shared experience at least with the people I have talked to.
Now speaking of my own marriage (straight married to straight) but without going into excessive detail .. no marriage is perfect ..there may be times when you feel more validated / intimate (emotionally .. spiritually .. physically) with your spouse than at other times. And if there is disagreement or emotional disconnect then the one spouse may pull away from the other. Matched orientation marriage is challenging enough. But I would think it would be very difficult for all parties involved if there was an ever present or often present sense of disconnect .. Particularly if it was happening at those times when there is supposed to be incredible intimacy. Hopefully this discussion puts some greater articulation on the points Wendy was making about her concerns for a mixed orientation marriage.
Post part 2..
ReplyDeleteNow in sharing all of this it is not my intent to paint all mixed orientation marriages with the same brush and/or to cast a cloud of doom on them. However .. my experience of sitting in on this group and hearing people’s stories and the subsequent conversations showed me some aspects of this kind of marriage that I had never thought of before. While I would certainly want to encourage anyone already in such a marriage I would be most uncomfortable recommending such an arrangement to a non married couple without them both having a thorough knowledge of the potential pitfalls of such an arrangement. I am not sure at this point whether I could in good conscience officiate such a wedding . I am currently trying to find material that would be helpful to couples who are already in such a marriage (in case it ever came up in my ministry) but so far the material is quite limited.
The success of such a marriage would depend on the bisexual potential of the SSA individual and the needs and adaptability of the straight spouse, neither of which are typically totally discernable until well into the marriage relationship. I know of course that one’s faith in Christ is critical as well … however the circumstances of a mixed orientation marriage are unique and certainly not discussed in scripture.
I submit all of this as food for thought. I am certainly open to continuing to hear other people’s stories and journeys.
God bless,
Dave
Dave these are important observations, which I share in my experiences. Thanks for articulating them here. I have been trying to bang the drum to ensure that in our conversations about sexuality we are speaking of a wholistic sexuality not a genitalized reductionistic sexuality. Your comments illuminate this well for the implications in a mixed-orientation marriage. For both partners there can be a painful and enduring disconnection in intimacy. This can happen in other marriages where both partners are straight but one or both partners deal with mental illness, the autism spectrum, or other types of disability. Such marriages are hard work, can be painful and lonely. At the same time, when partners share conviction and faith and are raising children, there may be strong motivation to continue to try to live the best life possible within such limitations. This can be done with God's grace. But, some marriages breakdown despite people's best efforts and truly loving intentions towards their spouse. In these situations we are called to humbly extend grace, love and support. But .... having seen the reality of such marriages, I have come to a place where I will not recommend marriage to a potential couple who demonstrate these kinds of limitations with very few exceptions.
ReplyDeleteDave,
ReplyDeleteYou can find some very useful information from the following website: Straight Spouse Network. They have an open forum where you can read some grisly stories about mixed orientation marriages. However, they also have a closed forum for more private discussion which includes mixed orientation marriages that need help, or are working. Perhaps, you may find some information that may be helpful.
http://www.straightspouse.org/home.php
Thanks for the reference Teresea :)
ReplyDeleteDave
Thank you for sharing these reflections, Wendy. I found it a wonderful post overall.
ReplyDeleteI do want to comment briefly on the topic of "promiscuity," however. It's a word that I have come to see as representative of a mindset that tends to be dismissive, judgmental, and otherwise othering towards those who find fulfillment (or explore the possibility of finding it) through any sexual ethic and practice that does not consider celibacy or lifelong monogamy to be the only possible options. (In feminist circles, this mentality is often described as "slut shaming" when it manifests in its most extreme form.) Truth be told, many people find sexual and/or romantic intimacy and fulfillment through a broad variety of ways, and I feel it's important to take care what kind of assumptions we make about other people or things we imply -- even unintentionally -- about them.
I'm not accusing you of doing this, but I felt it's important to bring up. One of the things that I've noticed about gay/SSA Christians -- even Side A Christians -- is that intentionally or unintentionally, they still have a tendency to other and even vilify those gay people who subscribe to other sexual ethics. I realize this is particularly difficult in a discussion like this, where the focus is mainly on human sexuality within the context of the Christian faith. But all the same, there are non-Christians watching the conversation, and how we perceive ourselves being portrayed (or not portrayed) in such a conversation is going to stick out. ;)
ah Jarred - yes that will be stretching for many Christian readers I'm sure :)
ReplyDeleteYou're quite right when you identify dismissive and judgmental attitudes as being problematic. While I would clearly have reservations about particular sexual ethics that I believe were inconsistent with God's best for human beings, I am not called to express such reservations by devaluing the human beings who explore or hold to such an ethic. Their humanity is still precious to God - regardless of their ethic. This gets into very challenging terrain for some of us as we try to figure out how to extend love and dignity to individuals who engage in practices that we think are inappropriate or harmful to themselves or others. But .... that is the crux of this entire conversation ..... learning to live in the tension of our convictions and loving those who hold differing perspectives.
Thanks for upping the ante and perhaps challenging us even further to learn to extend the love of Christ beyond our comfort zones.
In terms of the usage in this post, I do think that some people are promiscuous as a way of running from unresolved pain - and coming into an encounter with faith, and perhaps a release of some of that pain, can seem to bring an almost euphoric sense of transformation. In Christian's case in the Oprah program, it seemed he was almost in that in-between stage I've seen lots of times - in-between the euphoria and mountain-top experience of coming to faith and the crash back into reality which can be disappointing or bring disillusionment. What I was trying to point out was that this is a very different experience than the kid who grows up in a Christian home, essentially applies Christian values to how he lives his life, and is grappling with the reality of his sexuality and how to continue to move forward in his life. For those who do not have a history of sexual activity or involvement, it is a different kind of journey.
So you're right, I wasn't trying to be dismissive or judgmental towards those who intentionally choose a sexual ethic that is more open than typical Christian sexual ethics.
"In terms of the usage in this post, I do think that some people are promiscuous as a way of running from unresolved pain - and coming into an encounter with faith, and perhaps a release of some of that pain, can seem to bring an almost euphoric sense of transformation. In Christian's case in the Oprah program, it seemed he was almost in that in-between stage I've seen lots of times - in-between the euphoria and mountain-top experience of coming to faith and the crash back into reality which can be disappointing or bring disillusionment."
ReplyDeleteAfter viewing the video I'm really concerned for Christian. I think you're right there is that possibility he could find himself into such a place of disappointment or disillusionment. Or he could like myself stop placing such pressure on himself to become straight and allow God to affirm Him as He created Christian to be... that may include some change or it may not but that's not the point. I'm just saying I do agree mostly with that statement but I needed to add that he could have an encounter with God if he does find himself in a place of being disappointed and/or disillusioned by the pressure Janet has placed on him by making his journey about becoming straight and then journey into the reality of being in relationship with Jesus while maintaining his current convictions and being open for such transformation to take place in his life. I think being open to all people and to give space to all people it's important that we don't predetermine what the end result will be for Christian and maybe the first place to start is really to pray for him that he does not become disillusioned and continue in his relationship with Jesus.
I could actually relate in many ways to Christian and know what it's like to be in that in-between season and what it's like to be disappointed and disillusioned by it all. I'm still however, open to see God change me in the ways that he can I've just stopped pressuring myself to become straight and walk out my faith with the question ... what if my same sex attraction is never completely eradicated from my life. It's not a big deal one way or another for me because my primary focus is my relationship with Jesus.
I think too some of these terms like promiscuous are terms used to describe somebody with multiple sexual partners who go from one person to the next. Being promiscuous is being promiscuous. I do think however, that disrespecting the person who's lifestyle is promiscuous is not in keeping with Jesus Character as Jesus approached and included such women who were seen as outcasts among the religious and challenged the religious leaders ... "he without sin cast the first stone ..."
I have to question though, and it's an honest question ... how one can say that being promiscuous is engaging in true intimacy?
I'm troubled by several things:
ReplyDeleteFirst, my ease of putting people in boxes based on some of what they reveal. An example, if someone were to tell me which political party they belonged to, my first inclination is to frame that person with all the rhetoric associated with that party. I have to learn to move past that initial packaging of the person; and, just let the person be. Right?
Second, if we've learned from life's experiences some very painful lessons; and, want to spare others that pain, do we remain silent in those situations. Example again, I know women who have been in the sex-trade industry. They're no longer working the streets; but, they're still 'promiscuous'. Do we not say anything, when we know this is harmful?
How do we love someone while watching them do things that lead to pain and suffering ... not because we're better than they are, hardly. But, because we've been there, done that, bought the t-shirt, so-to-speak.
I think you understand what I'm trying to say.
Teresa:
ReplyDeleteSecond, if we've learned from life's experiences some very painful lessons; and, want to spare others that pain, do we remain silent in those situations. Example again, I know women who have been in the sex-trade industry. They're no longer working the streets; but, they're still 'promiscuous'. Do we not say anything, when we know this is harmful?
The problem with this is that your generalizing your own experience (and those of people you know) and assuming it's shared by everyone with similar experiences. In many ways, it's the same kind of thing that ex-gays do when they generalize their own experience in the gay subculture to say that all gay people are addicted to sex and abuse alcohol and other drugs.
Can you say something? Sure. But be careful about projecting your own experiences onto theirs. People may actually tell you that what you personally found harmful, they find very satisfactory and fulfilling. Are you prepared to accept them at their word?
Sarah:
I have to question though, and it's an honest question ... how one can say that being promiscuous is engaging in true intimacy?
There are different kinds of intimacy. The intimacy I experience with my friend Charlene is not the same intimacy I experience with my mother. Neither is the same intimacy I've experienced with past boyfriends. Sex with multiple partners -- and I assume we're talking about the "string of different partners every week" stereotype when using that term rather than a stable triad who have been together for fie or six years -- may provide sexual and physical closeness without emtional intimacy. But perhaps that's what that person needs or wants. Perhaps they find emotional intimacy through other means. Again, I'd suggest perhaps you're generalizing what you've found that you want and need and trying to apply it to people who don't feel it applies to them.
I certainly don't want to become known as the constant defender of non-monogamous relationships on this blog, mind you...
Teresa, I would think that it should depend on whether the harm is directly observed or only assumed. Plenty of people have assumed my being gay (and atheist) is harmful (to me and to others) and feel that is justification enough to harangue me for it - without bothering to know me or any fact about my life.
ReplyDeleteWhile I completely agree with Jarred's point, I would never have had the nerve to bring it up because I don't think that most US conservative Christians are capable of having a truly objective conversation about sex and sex-positive attitudes. As evidenced by the push from louder conservative contingents for abstinence-only programs which have been shown not to work and the move to defund Planned Parenthood. As a culture, the US is crazy out of its mind when it comes to sex. Want it, advertise it, flaunt it, but are scandalized when people have it and/or don't have crippling hangups over it.
Before even considering a conversation with the women you mentioned my first questions would be:
- are they practicing safe sex each and every time
- does it interfere with any part of their lives (no negative impact on job performance, not deliberately destroying relationships, not associated with certifiably self-destructive behavior like drug/alcohol addiction)
- is it consensual every time (not getting into potentially life-threatening situations)
- are they able to clearly communicate with their partners about boundaries and limitations
- are they, on balance, happy with their lives and generally feel fulfilled?
Those, in my mind, would be some of the more important factors to weigh - regardless of whether or not I would choose a similar path for myself.
Jarred ...
ReplyDelete"The problem with this is that your generalizing your own experience (and those of people you know) and assuming it's shared by everyone with similar experiences. In many ways, it's the same kind of thing that ex-gays do when they generalize their own experience in the gay subculture to say that all gay people are addicted to sex and abuse alcohol and other drugs."
You've just generalized those within the post gay movement. :)
Tersa,
ReplyDeleteYou have some interesting observations.
Jared and Brian,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your responses; and, a tall order, indeed, to wait and genuinely get to know other persons.
And, yes, I see how we project our experience(s) onto others. Being a Christian, or any beliefs whatsoever, our little egos (big, actually) try to "fix everything to our rules".
Growing into a person that's trying to love people, no matter what, is a process and not an event. For now, I'm taking the baby steps of shutting down my 'internal judgment monitor', and genuinely trying to listen to my neighbor.
It'll be a big step for me, to see promiscuous behavior as anything other than harmful; and, maybe, I'll be left with seeing it as harmful for myself. I never thought of it otherwise, for any variety of reasons. Who would have thought? For now, I'll try the maxim, "live and let live".
This thread has been a very enlightening journey; although, at times somewhat uncomfortable.
You're quite right about that, Sarah. I apologize for that.
ReplyDeleteTeresa, I can fully appreciate how difficult it is to "shut down the Internal Judgment Monitor" as you so aptly phrased it. (caps mine, I like the label) I think it takes a great deal of courage to do.
ReplyDeleteMy coming out was a dual transition - one of learning to accept/integrate my sexuality and a second one of having to re-vision how I understood matters that were answered by my faith (mine was of the black/white no-shades-of-gray variety).
I know that after leaving my literalist, fundamentalist Christian mindset that I still had a fundamentalist mindset. It took me a long time to learn how to recognize my own judgmental patterns - especially when aimed at new targets (my ex-faith). Even now, decades later, I have to watch myself for knee-jerk reactions. It can take the form of leftover internalized homophobia or the anger I often feel toward Christianity and the generalizations I will make as a result.
I think the first step is recognizing that the IJM has been activated - and then to spend some time rationally examining whether that initial gut response is warranted.
I also think one reason that kind of transition is so difficult is because when you start examining issues that you previously misjudged you begin to wonder about what else you might have been mistaken about. Next thing you know you've had to re-think who you are as a person because suddenly you now have a different kind of relationship with the world around you because of your new perceptions.
That can be scary. And tricky to navigate because the people in your support network might not be ready to take the same journey with you and could be unable to understand your evolving point of view.
And yes, as you say, a process, not an event. It's the lesson I learned from coming out. But not unique to coming out, I think; probably descriptive of any kind of shift of faith (where faith is defined loosely as how one creates and understands meaning and purpose in life).
I'd be curious to know if Sarah (or Wendy) would say the same things about her journey (even if stated with a different vocabulary).
Wendy,
ReplyDeleteI was so impressed with some of the statements you made in your blog, that I used a few of your quotes in my own.
Here is the blog post I wrote in which I quote you, and I hope it contributes some to the discussion here:
http://iainbradford.com/a-gay-constitution-part-i
Brian and Teresa - your observations on the challenges of breaking out of a black and white paradigm are really helpful. Thank you. I can relate to your observations and experiences. I don't think my upbringing was as fundamentalist as some may have experienced, but there were also plenty of assumptions that I needed to risk deconstructing in the pursuit of a more generous and humble faith. While that continues to be a challenging path, I am so very grateful to be moving in this direction. I do feel much more free to not only love others where they're at, but to love myself with all the weaknesses and limitations that are part of my reality.
ReplyDeleteAs I've been reflecting a bit on Jarred's comments about those who choose to be non-monogamous, I realized that part of the challenge for me in relating to such folks is that it is somewhat theoretical to me. In other words, I'm sure there are people in my life who express their sexuality in a non-monogamous manner - but they don't share the nitty gritty details of that with me. So if I think about how to extend love to them in relationship - it is essentially something I kind of need to imagine. This is not a particularly effective way of learning to build a relational bridge. It is the exact same dilemma I encounter as I speak with people about bridging relationships with lgbt people - when they don't have any friends who are lgbt. It then becomes some kind of mental exercise and doesn't do much for actual heart change towards a group of people you may have assumptions about. If I had neighbours who were swingers and I got to know them as simply my neighbours who I played euchre with and shared a glass of wine with now and then - then I would begin to discover what loving people despite a different sexual ethic really meant. Some might be surprised by my lack of personal connection with people with such a different sexual ethic - but truth be told, I don't delve into my friend's sexual histories or current sexual behaviour unless they choose to disclose to me. So while I know people who have not been monogamous - I don't personally know folks who choose that as a way of life. Most people who have not been monogamous who I know have regrets about that. So, it would be a different arena for ..... and one that I can't really learn too much about from a theoretical place.
Having said that, I am always open to being stretched by friends who bring different (and perhaps challenging) experiences and perspectives into my life. Even though at times it is uncomfortable for me - I really desire to learn how to love people where they're at and be the presence of Christ in their life - right where they are. So, if God brings some swinger friends into my life - I would look forward to getting to know them as people and discovering the things that God would want to point out in my own heart that perhaps still harbour pride or fear - both of which become barriers to love.
Brian,
ReplyDeleteThanks for you Comment. You're spot on when you stated that: "Next thing you know you've had to re-think who you are as a person because suddenly you now have a different kind of relationship with the world around you because of your new perceptions."
Being raised Catholic, everything was always "black and white", "in vs. out", "us vs. them", "bad vs. good", "right vs. wrong". I had no other way to view things. Going through what I've gone through the last 2-years; everything has been topsy-turvy in the Faith journey.
I so much now want to be a loving person ... "bear ye one another's burdens, and so you shall fulfill the law of Christ". I can see now that I never really loved myself; and, not really knowing that I was loved by God. (Please take all this as my journey in Christianity; not as a means of proselytizing). Having, finally, developed a relationship with Christ, I'm being called to extend that love to others.
It's very uncomfortable, at times. I don't know how to be a 'bridge builder'; but, I'm trying to learn. So, yes, Brian, I have to watch for that IJM (Internal Judgment Monitor), and set it aside, when I can.
I know it can't just be me; but, this judging all seems to be fear-based. Who will I be if I let you into my space? All the rules make it so easy to label, judge, sort out. There's a sense of security that comes with mental certitude (even if it's a wrong certitude).
I think the following meditation from Fr. Richard Rohr sort of explains this journey:
"Enlightenment (John 8:12) cannot be manufactured, manipulated, or delivered on demand. It is always given from another. Wisdom is not a do-it-yourself project. The Spirit blows where it pleases, and for those of us on the journey, all we can do is listen for the lessons and remain open. Jesus called this faith.
All we can really do is ask for the grace to be open and willing enough to recognize the secret doorways God opens for us. The door is almost always some form of suffering—physical, relational, emotional, intellectual, or structural. I define suffering as what happens to you whenever you are not in control.
Enlightenment is not about knowing as much as it is about unknowing; it is not so much learning as unlearning. It is about surrendering and letting go rather than achieving and possessing. It’s more about entering the mystery than arriving at a mental certitude."
Brian and Teresa, I've enjoyed reading your discussion about the IJM and I agree with you both. Like Brian, I now sometimes find it hard to turn off my own IJM when talking to certain (or on really bad days, any) Christians. I think it's a human challenge.
ReplyDeleteWendy, I get what you mean about finding it hard to think about these things when it's a more or less theoretical idea rather than something that you can "put skin to" by relating it to people you know. I'm actually thinking about writing a post talking (from an abstract "high-level" point of view) about my own recent explorations of a broader sexual ethic, my personal experiences, and my conclusions on both a personal and universal level. If I decided to go ahead with it, I hope you'll read it.
Jarred - of course I would read your post silly boy.
ReplyDeleteBrian I can relate to some of what you're sharing.
ReplyDeleteTheology wise I have a traditional view of scripture but I also think there should be room for grey. Just because somebody identifies themself as a gay christian that doesn't mean that person's faith journey aught to be discarded. I came to faith in Christ long before I began a post gay journey. I had a talk around this topic the other night and one thing that stood out was what my mentor said, "trust the process" no one's personal journey is all alike. At the same time I don't lower biblical standards to make the bible congruent with my life and faith but seek to live my life congruent with the traditional views of scripture... I'm actualy realy tired right now...anyways... Yes Brian I think you have some good observations. I tend to react more to the real fundamentalist Christians but admire those who walk the same walk they call others to walk and while I have my views I simply do put my own judgment aways and trust the process for my life and others.
Hi Teresa,
ReplyDeleteNever heard of Rohr before - I like the quote.
You wrote: "I know it can't just be me; but, this judging all seems to be fear-based. Who will I be if I let you into my space? All the rules make it so easy to label, judge, sort out. There's a sense of security that comes with mental certitude (even if it's a wrong certitude)."
Yes, I can personally vouch that my IJM is frequently activated by fear. One current example: my father is 91 and in a nursing home. While he is not suffering any terminal condition (other than life) I think we are looking at what is likely the beginning of his final decline. My parents live in a rural area that could be demographically described by the phrase "the smaller the town, the bigger the Jesus billboard."
Of course regarding Dad it's both sad and inevitable; I think I'm more or less braced for that. I know it will be hard, and probably harder than I can imagine, but that's not what scares me. I'm afraid of having to deal with the fundamentalist network around my parents. Having had my heart trampled by (different) people with the same belief system I don't know how I'm going to navigate my most vulnerable time with a group of people whose beliefs mirror those that treated me so cruelly before. At least, I assume they do... and I know it's my IJM whispering fear.
Frequently when I go to see my folks I have to remind myself that I will find what I'm looking for. A fight or support - whichever one I'm looking for - I'll find. I have to work at remembering that there IS support.
Will I be able to tolerate well-meaning but heartless comfort like "everything happens for a reason" or "with the trial God provides the way to overcome" or "he's with the Lord now"? Will I be able to forgive condescending, patronizing attitudes from people who, upon seeing my husband with me, think I need to be their mission field? Will I be subjected to worse? How careful do I need to be so that my Mother isn't subjected to harshness because she has a gay son? Will I, under the emotional duress of loss, be able to remain civil in the face of minor spiritual insults that I could otherwise ignore?
Hard to say. But definitely my fear speaking, and definitely judgmental. If there is a lesson to be learned here about generous spaciousness, I think it has to be about how I learn to transcend my fears, hurts and needs, to be able to extend it even when I am at my personal limits... and (perhaps most difficult for me) even if it is not extended in return.
Ultimately, my fear is that I don't know if I will be able to do that.
Brian - thank you so much for sharing so honestly and vulnerably. The situation you share about puts flesh and bones and the tremendous need for Christians to learn how to navigate this conversation in a generous and spacious manner. I will pray that when the time comes to release your father from this life, that you will experience authentic love, support, gentleness, graciousness and generosity from your parent's community. I truly hope that you will be surprised in the most pleasant way .... but should that not happen .... know that there is a small community here that will be praying for you and extending love.
ReplyDeleteThank you, Wendy. I really needed to hear those words tonight!
ReplyDeleteBrian,
ReplyDeleteWhat you've described certainly defines the process of "stepping outside ourselves and into the space of another ... regardless of the cost to us, emotionally" ... at the toughest time, no less, when we're already caught up in the grieving of a loved one.
I thank you for sharing with us; and, as Wendy said, we're all praying and cheering for you, here.
Personally, I don't think I would be up to being very gracious in your situation; although, I do pray daily the St. Francis Prayer, and it is my fervent prayer that Our Lord grant me the ability to be such a person.
I'm very much edified by your journey and insight.
Wendy, I finally got that post done.
ReplyDelete